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Re: 535is Turbo (ex 633 Callaway)- 2020 Update

Posted: Sep 04, 2020 8:01 PM
by tschultz
Thanks Charlie!
Ken, it was great to see yo' momma out on the mountain. :moon: :rofl:

I didn't get any driving videos unfortunately but maybe can come up with some later this year. My brother got a bit of me running down the mountain pulling away from the E39 M5 which was no surprise with the weight difference. But boost in those cool temps sure felt great!


I did forget to mention the week before the trip the car stalled out on me in front of my house and would not restart. It turned out that the coil went bad and had failed. It was also the source of the slight misfire I described above. I had checked the plugs and they looked good so I had been thinking of Wasted Spark. For my low boost setting, no need so far. The (used) replacement did just fine as I understand they rarely fail. Surprising that it failed, but otherwise smooth sailing. Deciding if I want to buy new or just a cheaper used unit that will work just fine.

A couple more photos.
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Re: 535is Turbo (ex 633 Callaway)- 2020 Update

Posted: Nov 03, 2020 9:42 AM
by tschultz
I have been letting you all down with my lack of updates and photos, I know!

The cooler temperatures mean I haven't yet swapped out the radiator but plan to do away with the south African unit--harder driving and the temps just creep up and up if the ambient temperature is above 70F. I have been driving the car for the last 4+ weeks and made some small adjustments in the tune.
This means I have driven the car about 2750 miles this year, a lot of which has been trying to tune is for consistency in the tune and drivability like stock. I am averaging about 20.5mpg and running up to 150/160kpa boost (8-10psi).

I did advance some timing in the boost region (Thanks to Nosis for sharing his tune) which helped improve performance and has made the car fun to drive although it doesn't loose traction when going straight due to the way boost arrives. Makes for a fun setup and definitely faster than the old M5... I might look into a boost controller solenoid to reduce the spool time some more by holding the wastegate shut, it seems my board might have the provision for it, so I just need to verify it has the output signal I expect.

I adjusted my EGO control to PID instead of Simple and noticed it was quicker and better at holding my target AFR in normal driving. It seems that there is some error built into the fueling equations where sometimes at idle the computer wants to add/remove fuel, but otherwise with VEAL running, the map I have is good for the load range otherwise, regardless of temperature. I also set the control interval for the idle valve at 100ms which helped almost eliminate my hot idle oscillation although there is a little bit of oscillation during warmup.

I also found that CLT based table is best for idle valve initial values, rather than MAT based-- this results in a more consistent tune.

I do get some strange startup behavior at about 40F and below where it takes a few cranks to keep the car running by itself. Otherwise though, I have been able to hop in the car and drive it. Smoothing out the advance in the low load range reduced some bucking that was occurring at light throttle.

Last week, I noticed boost was building way higher than expected and acceleration was lazy. I hit 178kpa (13.5psi) which is just below my boost cut limit, although I didn't fully rev it up, we were close. It felt slow since the pressure was bleeding out and the wastegate was partially open. That limit is also at 90% duty cycle of my injectors, so a good ceiling it turns out for my current setup. It turned out the wastegate line and blow off valves had popped off and boost was leaking as the wastegate wasn't opening fully (spring pressure only, no pressure assist).

I hope to share some more photos and details soon here.

In the mean time, here is the 318i project I have been working on here and there with my brothers. I designed and had the center console 3d printed. Hoping to do something similar for the cluster surround.

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Re: 535is Turbo (ex 633 Callaway)- 2020 Update

Posted: Nov 05, 2020 12:11 PM
by tschultz
Just to follow up, here are some recent settings from my tune, good with B34 and 91octane:

current MAT correction, about as close as I am going to get for consistency based on temp:
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Current barometric correction by altitude. Not intuitive but these setting work for me... good about 85-60kpa:
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Current throttle accel enrichments:
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The improved ego closed loop control settings that have been working 30F-85F:
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Closed loop idle settings. Sometimes has a small hunt warm and still have more of a hunt when warming up:
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Driving last week with the wastegate not fully opening and the boost leak--see how slowly boost builds. Hit max duty cycle of my injectors at 170+kpa. My target has been 150-160kpa for max boost.
Good to know my spark advance was good.
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Fixed, that acceleration and steady boost is more like it! Mixtures right at 12:1AFR. Duty cycle at about 80%
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Here ire the corresponding ignition table, advanced slightly in boost from 2018. Reduced advance near low rpm low load to eliminate most of the slight bucking that was occurring.
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Also I found some slip on Coilovers from Ireland engineering for a good price. I decided to see if they were worth the risk in getting a stiffer rear spring and possibly changing to camber plates that will allow me to dial in a bit more negative from camber and maybe some caster and height adjustment. This was me mocking them up with some spares I have on the shelf just for comparison purposes and mounting. 280# front springs, 440# rear, both fixed rate springs.
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Here's how the PO had them on his car:
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A great thread here talking about handling: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11423

I have found that I have a bit too much understeer, but going up close to stock ride height has helped reduce understeer. That is to say, I want to keep some rake and keep the camber in the rear close to 0 so that I don't add too much grip and cause even more understeer.

If I do go lower, I will be looking to keep the correct geometries. My 25/18 bars are good and I may play around with their settings a bit more.

Re: 535is Turbo (ex 633 Callaway)- 2020 Update

Posted: Dec 09, 2020 3:02 PM
by tschultz
Another update on the 535is.

Recently I have been working on the reliability of the 535is and still haven't figured out the cold start issue. It stalls after starting up when temperatures are below 50F. Touching the throttle makes it stall. But when warm it works great. Still working on that.

In the mean time, I did some research and found that the springs I bought would give me a similar bias as the Dinan setup. So I went about replacing the rears and using the height adjustable sleeves to get the height I wanted. This means I have standard Eibach Pro springs up front (~220#'s) with Bilsteins and the fixed camber plates. Then in the rear, I have 2.5" race springs (fixed rate instead of progressive) at 280#'s.

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Front camber is about -2.2 degrees on both sides and I have almost 0 toe.

I wanted to dial out the understeer, so going to fixed rate and increasing the rear rate from what I had was to help me. Keeping the height at the rear also means that I have limited camber in the rear to hopefully limit the rear grip and promote front grip and the front turning in better. My rear shocks are Bilstein's that are supposedly Dinan valved. I have used them for basically 10 years and they help the rear of the e28 from feeling soft like typical Bilsteins. I liked that this spring rate should be pretty well matched to the shocks for Dinan rear 280# springs.
I also turned my front sway bar (25mm) to full soft for the same reasoning as it seemed like the E28 defaults to total understeer in tighter turns.
My rear bar (18mm) is set to soft as well, but I contemplated setting it to hard if I still want more rear end action.

Height is the same as this past summer, I measured and set the bilstein to second from the top circlip.
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Here's my recent MAT/BARO settings.

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Ignition advance. I backed off some advance for smoothness near low load/low rpm. That got rid of most of the jerkiness.

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I run through a couple round-abouts on a regular basis where I can easily assess how the car handles. The spring change certainly helped the rear want to slide earlier, so the next step was the sway bar change. That again helped and make the car feel easier to change directions.

I just purchased a boost controller after thinking about the output of my megasquirt unit. I confirmed it was wired up with grounding signal on the IAC2 circuit. I did some research and decided upon a 4 port solenoid valve that I can run as 3 port or 4 port MAC 46A-AA1-JDBA-1BA.

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The main advantage of the 4 port is that you can send boost to the top of the wastegate with no signal to the bottom to literally hold it shut. This allows high boost control up to 4x the wastegate spring but I decided to use it like a 3 port because I didn't want to have the touchy duty cycle where 1% duty could change boost by 2-3%. May play with those setting later since now I have the option.

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The controller simply starts with an initial value table like idle valve and then sends a signal when active. The signal is a pulse that is a % of the window of time, so 100% duty is open fully for the full unit of time. 50% is half. Then, the frequency settings change how long/short the unit of time is. So in test mode you can audibly hear the change in speed of opening/closing when going from 19Hz to 15Hz-- it gets faster.

Here are some datalogs once I got it hooked up and was testing it's function. I found that 20-30% duty gave me about 5-10psi boost-- I was using my tunerstudio dash to view it.
This was my fist log of 155kpa after I knew the solenoid was working at 135kpa. It is easy to see that the 80% duty cycle was exceeded while boost was ramping up, trying as aggressive as possible to reach max boost.

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Fuel mixture was a little rich and I was approaching 85% duty cycle (the limit) of my injectors. Timing was smooth after I applied a smoothing factor on my ignition table, which is visible in the log. Notice how boost jumps above to 169kpa and slowly levels back down to the target of 155kpa. This was too aggressive PID settings and I found some detail on tuning the PID:
1- Playing with the P term will influence the moment when the boost duty will start to increase when the boost is increasing. Big P number make the boost duty coming up sooner when the MAP is increasing and vice-versa.
2- Increasing P will reduce initial overshoot and vice-versa.
3- Increasing I will slightly increase initial overshoot. If the target isn't reached initially, a bigger I term will make the boost climbing to the target faster. Too much a I term will make the boost oscillating after the initial overshoot.
4- The D term will reduce the oscillating effect of a large I number. Too much D term lead to huge oscillations in the boost duty. It takes some large D number to reduce the initial overshoot.
5- I've varied the Control Interval from 30ms to 10ms without seeing any changes in boost control performance. Smaller Control Interval will lead to higher oscillation of the boost duty.
6- You can limit the maximal boost duty by setting the Open Duty at a number lower than 100%. It is useful if you do not reach the target initially because the boost is climbing faster. But this is not a good solution because it prevent the PID code to do his job if a smaller boost target is wanted later.
7- You want some sort of initial overshoot to have a good control. If the target isn't reached initially, the I term will try to get the boost to the target, but it will take some time.
8- Initial overshoot will be bigger in higher gear (4th, 5th) for a given PID setting compared to a 3rd gear run because the boost is climbing much more slowly and the P term is supposed to react to (current_error - last_error). When boost is climbing slowly, (current_error - last_error) isn't a big number so the P term do not have the same impact as in 3rd gear. The inverse is also true : you will get less overshoot when boost is climbing faster (like in 2nd gear).
I backed off the I and D settings and saw this result, boost too conservative in ramping up, but solenoid duty a nice level setting. Boost reached 10 and was slowly rising to 154kpa, but never eaching the target in 3+ seconds. Notice the gearshift and general good control of the fuel mixture. I simply need to dial back the fuel a little bit and be at 12:1 after, not 11.7:1
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Here is a single pull merging onto the highway about 45-85mph. This section of the map was slightle too lean at 12.4:1
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I am still dialing it in, but yesterday with boost reaching 8psi(145kpa) and slowly opening to the target of 10, I got this virtual dyno plot. My engine's blowby means I think I am losing some power, but overall I will retry this plot once I get boost settings dialed.

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In the mean time, I just installed brake pads and did a fluid flush (ATE TYP 200)-- EBC redstuff street/track pads. They are ceramic and low dust which means they should be a nice fit for my dual duty (but street focused) use. Don't forget I have the E32/E34 upgraded brakes which allows use of E36 M3 pads.

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Next up, aiming for a track day with the current setup. I am contemplating changing the radiator or running as is since temps should be below 60F.
I also have an oil catch can coming to try to collect any blowby instead of oiling my intercooler as it has been.

More updates and some photos/video to come!

Re: 535is Turbo (ex 633 Callaway)- 2020 Update

Posted: Dec 09, 2020 5:07 PM
by foolish
I love the gradual improvements and am learning a lot from your experience. What will you do when it's "perfectly" sorted?

Re: 535is Turbo (ex 633 Callaway)- 2020 Update

Posted: Dec 10, 2020 4:57 PM
by marc79euro645
interesting setup! what turbo are you using again?
I have an mbc(cranked all the way shut) on a top diaphram, single hose setup. That way I get all the boost my little kkk27 can produce. I've been tempted to try a bigger turbo. I just don't know if I'm ready to upgrade everything else, that will probably fail, when I put more power in it.
I was lookin at your spark map. Mine is more aggressive, looks like you have room to move up if you wanted.
good luck

Re: 535is Turbo (ex 633 Callaway)- 2020 Update

Posted: Dec 11, 2020 3:48 AM
by Tiit
Thanks for detailed update.

Re: 535is Turbo (ex 633 Callaway)- 2020 Update

Posted: Dec 14, 2020 11:39 AM
by tschultz
foolish wrote: Dec 09, 2020 5:07 PM I love the gradual improvements and am learning a lot from your experience. What will you do when it's "perfectly" sorted?
I know I have made slow progress overall but:

The goal for this car has always been a dual duty vehicle--being a hop in and go driver for mountain runs or trips. The four doors and truck space of the E28 make it a nicely sized vehicle without being too big. It handles well overall, but I have been focused on making it perform better without spending $$$ for anything and everything. The second piece of it all is being able to drive it at the local road course and have a blast improving my driving skill and outpacing the run of the mill E36's and more modern cars. I felt more comfortable messing with and pushing the limits of the turbo M30 than the E28 M5 I had. It has been fun to gradually improve and tweak-- the process of thinking about it, executing it myself and seeing the result has been more fun than simply paying somebody to put parts on and go.

It's been a balance of my other life/family goals and car goals which is probably why I don't make quicker progress. I have a lot of ideas of course! Not sure I have decided which pathway to go, but I have thought about the following:

-Add KnocksenseMS input for safety margin
-Bring to Dyno expert for tuning and ignition advance fine tuning
-Remove dents
-Repaint
-Install euro bumpers and headlights
-Flip throttle body
-Install B35 or similar engine upgrades (head work? pistons?)
-Consider wasted spark and distributor removal
-Larger injectors and upping the boost with confidence in the ignition timing and my tuning

Otherwise is to drive it. I have put over 5000 miles on the 535is and over 8000 on the turbo 633 since I really started this turbo project in early 2015.


Marc, I have TCD's comp turbo: 60/P Trim with the garret 60 wheel which is about 65#/min for flow. I am hardly pushing what this thing can do as it is rated for up to 20+psi boost on the M30. Do you care to share your spark map? I am running 91 octane of that is different than you...

Re: 535is Turbo (ex 633 Callaway)- 2020 Update

Posted: Dec 14, 2020 6:49 PM
by marc79euro645
I'll be glad to share . I just have to figure out how to post pics. I'll work on it.

Re: 535is Turbo (ex 633 Callaway)- 2020 Update

Posted: Dec 15, 2020 6:19 PM
by marc79euro645
NOTE;

Re: 535is Turbo (ex 633 Callaway)- 2023 Update

Posted: May 03, 2023 9:55 PM
by tschultz
Long overdue update.

I have Burt still though haven't been driving him as much lately. I was collecting parts and then got extra busy welcoming my second child last year. Two boys keeps me busy, that's for sure, so my time was limited as far as car projects and simply maintaining the fleet was about all I was able to work on.
A lot of spare time went towards the M42 E30 for 24 hours of lemons in 2021. We raced in september but had re4liability problems and could not complete the full 24.

Donated the front airdam from the 633 for the car
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painting it ourselves
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Some work last yer in 2022 got the car runnign reliably finally back in November for us to hit a race or two this year in 2023
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But for the e28, I was slowly collecting parts and deciding about some improvements on the car. I got some pistons and a B35 cylinder head and decided to start a B35 engine build up. Main reason for this is for better response and a new engine with rings/bearings.
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crank measured within original spec!
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Looked at mounting my intercooler a bit more solid. Here is the mock up
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Playing with euro valance and fog light clearance from the frame rails. Some used euro headlights!
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Got some new piping to mate the intercooler all underneath the euro valance, euro bumpers and front airdam. Also got the replica euro headlight wipers and I think they look pretty good for replicas!
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Piping routed
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Next to my '85 which has been parked for a little while also
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Re: 535is Turbo (ex 633 Callaway)- 2023 Update

Posted: May 04, 2023 11:36 PM
by turbodan
Can you slide that intercooler up a bit if you trim the sheet metal under the grilles? I think it's worth it to maximize clearance and keep the plumbing tight to the bodywork.

I love the durability of these engines. After 35+ years all they need at most are rings and bearings. Cylinder walls are mint, crank journals look new.

Re: 535is Turbo (ex 633 Callaway)- 2023 Update

Posted: May 08, 2023 10:09 AM
by tschultz
Not sure why the engine bay photo didn't work, but here it is again. Sorry for the dirty, car hasn't been washed in over 2 years.
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In moving the intercooler, I am limited by the pipe routing under the front end as well as the sheetmetal in the nose. Both prevent it from going up. So if I were to ever upgrade, I think I'd try to get a similar unit that was just a bit taller.

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You can see my 2.5" piping which is going underneath the front end but hangs about the same height as the oil pan. I couldn't really fit it the way you did (above the tow hooks) because I have euro fog lights in that area. I wanted the euro look so I was willing to go with this solution. You can also see my euro valance covers in that photo. I had them made and am selling to help fund the build. I have 10 sets remaining right now.




Very true Dan, here is a better photo of the cylinder wall! I don't know true mileage for this block as we pulled it from a 533i and then I ran it for a few thousand miles in this car before pulling it back out in 2017. It did have an oem Goetze headgasket which was a good sign! I'll have to record the vin on the block and see what it originally came in.

Cylinder #4 during piston install
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Speaking of clearances and wear, the crank came in very good, for reference an average 2.3597" and clearances for the mains (inches) ended at:

Code: Select all

Low Clear	0.0020	0.0021	0.0020	0.0021	0.0022	0.0022	0.0022
High Clear	0.0024	0.0025	0.0024	0.0025	0.0026	0.0026	0.0026

LIMIT:			0.0012-0.0028in			
For the connecting rod journals, the average was 1.8886mm with clearances (inches) as

Code: Select all

Low Clear	0.0011	0.0012	0.0012	0.0011	0.0011	0.0012
High Clear	0.0014	0.0015	0.0015	0.0014	0.0014	0.0015

LIMIT:               	0.0012-0.0028in


The majority of the wear is on the pistons with them averaging 3.6188"(91.916mm) in diameter, translating into the following wear (inches) listed as 1-6:

Code: Select all

WEAR:	0.0030	0.0033	0.0031	0.0033	0.0034	0.0034
I am thinking about using stock headgasket instead of MLS as I intend to keep boost at or below 10psi.


I liked the weathered look of the block after getting it cleaned up but I decided to paint it. Here it is after removing oil and wire wheeling the surface. I know L block is M90, I never noticed the F before... I will share another photo of the painted block the next time I get back to it.

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I have to start thinking about when I will swap the engine into the car as I need the oil pan from the one in the car.. I wasn't sure I wanted to tap a second oil pan for draining, but thinking about it, that may be quicker to swap and I can improve the oil drain pathway if I did so...

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The trick with the rotomaster turbo was how to clear the subframe nicely. Of course I won't need to worry about it quite the same with my current turbo (See above).
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Re: 535is Turbo (ex 633 Callaway)- 2023 Update

Posted: May 08, 2023 8:28 PM
by marc79euro645
Lookin good!
I just want to say the timing map I posted above, resulted in 2 pistons with broken ring lands. I edited my post to say that as well. I really think I'd like to just remove the photo entirely. I would hate to be the cause of someone hurting their motor. My current build is using b35 pistons. I milled the tops flat and flycut for valves, which should give me 9.2:1 static. I'm starting to tune for the added compression. I just keep pulling out timing, but still getting knocksense light, so not sure where I'll end up. I'm considering a meth injection kit to help.

Re: 535is Turbo (ex 633 Callaway)- 2023 Update

Posted: May 09, 2023 3:50 PM
by tschultz
Shame to hear! It makes sense to need less timing with additional compression if you were previously 8:1. Not quite sure how you got to higher compression though unless you swapped B35 pistons and head and even still I think you should be below 9:1 (due to your machining work) unless you went with a skimmed head or thinner gasket.
Stock B35 bottom with B34 head may be getting closer to 9.8:1 from my research. B34 bottom with B35 head should be closer to 7.5:1...


I swapped on my style 9 wheels which are the same ones pictures on the gold car that I bought the lowering coilover kit from. I didn't put the covers on but I did drive the car for the first time in over a year.

I'm pretty excited how it is looking even though the paint is rough.

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I have a boost leak I need to track down in my short test drive. Also ABS is not coming on and the rears are locking up, so the E34 brakes are definitely too much rear biased. I will need to swap pads or something else to further improve the brake bias. A lot of people don't seem to realize this happens when you go to the bigger brake setup of E34/E32...

May be a bit quiet for a few weeks until I can make more engine progress.

Re: 535is Turbo (ex 633 Callaway)- 2023 Update

Posted: Nov 15, 2023 11:09 AM
by tschultz
I wasn't able to make progress with the engine at my brother's place because of commitments with family/children, so I decided I should try to get the engine to my house. So we made plans and I loaded it up in our x5 to take home. This will allow me to work on it a bit in my spare time (aka at night).

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I got an engine stand last year and my other brother is letting me borrow his engine hoist. I was able to unload the shortblock by myself and get it into my garage.

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I believe the shortblock with crank and pistons is about 230 lbs.

Here's the progress of it with the painted block. Pretty happy with the color and it seems pretty durable. I am ok with it not being flat black.
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It is an '85 block which will match with my G265 trans.
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Disassembled the oil pump and swapped in one that was in a bit better shape.
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I found the tensioner wasn't sliding smoothly, so I removed it and sanded it and the timing cover mount with 1500 grit and it slides nicely again.

I need to tighten down the crank nut, but I will use my hack method of a block of wood on the crank and the engine stand strapped/held in position with a few tools (floor jack, cranks, straps, 3/4" drive, jack handle).
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I used this method to disassemble an engine at my house with BADLY rusted pistons. I couldn't really get 2 of them out, even after atf soak for a month. At least I got a good oil pump, crank and B34 head out of it, but shame I couldn't salvage the block or all of the pistons...

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I mounted the pulleys and balancer/toothed wheel yesterday and will plan to torque the crank nut in the next few days. I am contemplating running with 42lb injectors for a bit more headroom and the overall additional flow I should be getting with the higher compression 9:1 pistons and through the B35 head and intake I should be able to go up a bit in boost if I feel the need.

I had problems with what I thought we 42lb injectors going back a few years, but according to my research, I may not have had the deadtime set right. This setting may have made a difference with my idling problems at the time:
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The green giant genuine bosch is pn 0280155968 and rated between 415-440cc would be 25% more flow than my current set. Posting here for reference the current white 36# injectors I have (pn 0280155811, 12.2ohm 354cc @ 3 bar)
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I am probably going to keep with stock headgasket, so I have a cometic MLS .070" up for grabs, if somebody is interested. Waited 3 months to get it in 2022 even!

I am not sure when I will pull the engine to do the swap, but having it on a stand at my house means I would theoretically be able to remove the engine from the e28 and swap it in when I have the chance. Since it is getting colder out, it may be less fun to do in my uninsulated garage in the upcoming winter months too...

Re: 535is Turbo (ex 633 Callaway)- 2023 Update

Posted: Dec 24, 2023 1:00 AM
by Mike W.
tschultz wrote: Nov 15, 2023 11:09 AM
I believe the shortblock with crank and pistons is about 230 lbs.
Pretty close to what I got, without the front cover and timing gear. 213.

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