removing the ABS, a good idea?

E28 technical advice asked and given! Troubleshooting, modifications and more.
Eta power
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Post by Eta power »

12valves wrote:...if you are trying to slow down then go ahead and lock up the wheels. At least then the snow gets pushed out of the way so the rubber can make contact with the road.
Wrong. You brake most effectively when the wheels are still turning. Also, if you're over ice, water, snow, whatever, and your tires are locked-up, good luck trying to steer! :roll:

ABS does not "create" traction, but simply keeps the wheels from locking up. This allows you to stop faster than if your wheels are locked. I am also inclined to agree with Jeremy.
Jeremy wrote:I consider ABS an essential and important safety feature personally. I wouldn't eliminate it on anything except a dedicated track rat that I was trying to strip all the weight possible out of.
12valves
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Post by 12valves »

Eta power wrote:
12valves wrote:...if you are trying to slow down then go ahead and lock up the wheels. At least then the snow gets pushed out of the way so the rubber can make contact with the road.
Wrong.
[/quote]
http://www.google.com/search?q=abs+snow ... g+distance
Mike W.
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Post by Mike W. »

To the OP, just unplug the relays if you want to disconnect it, on the track it might be useful, but in anything short of a full fledged race car the weight savings is negligable.
12valves wrote:I don`t know why you guys keep talking about snow and ice, ABS doesn't create traction out of thin air, that isn`t the point of it. If you can`t even slow down, steering isn`t likely either, and if you are trying to slow down then go ahead and lock up the wheels. At least then the snow gets pushed out of the way so the rubber can make contact with the road.
I've heard of the snowplow theory, but in my experience (significant, but not lifelong) locked up and sliding gives much less braking than rolling braking. And it's true in wet/dry it doesn't create traction, it enables control and directional stability, not maximum deacceleration. I think ABS is at it's most useful when the back end is locking up, particularly with a less than expert driver. Rear tires locking up for many drivers means spinning. ABS is a good thing, not a cure all.
wkohler
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Post by wkohler »

Bunch of idiots ITT.

I'd never disconnect my ABS. It works fine - and does it's job especially on the track and autocross.
Patrick McHugh
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Post by Patrick McHugh »

Big Bronze Rim wrote:
Patrick McHugh wrote: It's meant for soccer moms in the snow.
:facepalm:
In the E28, yes. In more modern cars ABS can out perform most humans.
Jeremy
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Post by Jeremy »

12valves wrote:
Eta power wrote:
12valves wrote:...if you are trying to slow down then go ahead and lock up the wheels. At least then the snow gets pushed out of the way so the rubber can make contact with the road.
Wrong.
http://www.google.com/search?q=abs+snow ... g+distance
Your result is true, but your reasoning is faulty. A very good driver can stop a vehicle marginally shorter than ABS, but it's not because of your "snowplow theory". Static friction (tires rotating) is always higher than dynamic friction (tires locked up). A good human driver can typically threshold brake better than ABS will allow, that's why you stop shorter.

As Patrick points out, I'm not sure if that's still the case will a fully modern system, but that 2 or 3 foot "penalty" is worth it to me to know I can hammer the brakes and retain steering control. This is even more true for drivers without a lot of track time.

Jeremy
trav3000
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Post by trav3000 »

on
Last edited by trav3000 on Jul 29, 2010 8:27 PM, edited 3 times in total.
Shawn D.
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Post by Shawn D. »

This all seems very BMWgiant-ish to me. ;)
trav3000
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Post by trav3000 »

in deed :laugh:
535is-pa
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Post by 535is-pa »

i love my vacuum booster and non abs setup n my early 528, it kicks ass pedal feel is amazing so much better then my old 535's or my m3, and the simplicity speaks for it self.

but i have locked up the brakes in a panic stop in the rain,,,,it catches you off guard for a second, and if you drive like an asshole and get 5 feet from someones bumper you are going to eat it,
Brad D.
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Post by Brad D. »

Shawn D. wrote:This all seems very BMWgiant-ish to me. ;)
:laugh:
Tammer in Philly
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Post by Tammer in Philly »

trav3000 wrote:
mooseheadm5 wrote:Unless your friend did something to change the brake bias there would be no noticeable difference between a car with ABS and the same car using the same parts minus the ABS.
he told me after just pulling of the track. that he could go deeper into the brakes. meaning the ABS kicks in before the point that they lock up. shorter stopping distance, quicker lap times.

... and like i said. i'm just curious. not really intending on doing it.
That's a driver technique failure. You can threshold brake a car (at the tire limits) with ABS. If he just slams on the pedal, then yes, he'll be into the ABS and braking distance will increase. When he does that without ABS, he'll flat-spot tires. That's $$$. Why remove a functional (and sometimes helpful) system when you can just change the way you apply the pedal?

Caveat: when I do screw up and get into the ABS in my E36 track car, it SUCKS. The system isn't calibrated for R-compound tires, and it once engaged the ABS can be slow to "release." That's made me a better threshold braker, though, and it does save me the occasional damaged tire.

By the way, your explanation of what ABS is for is incorrect.

-tammer
Jeremy
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Post by Jeremy »

trav3000 wrote:two things. one if it snows in Austin, TX they close the city and i don't know about you guys but i've locked the brakes in many different cars and it is not the oh so scary situation some are describing.
Really? You've never had some dip pull out in front of you in the rain? I'm not talking about slowing for a light or stop sign, I'm talking emergency maneuvers. Snow has nothing to do with it, more than snow/ice can compromise traction in an emergency situation.

There's simply no good reason to remove a functional ABS system from an e28.

Jeremy
chukrad
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Post by chukrad »

If you think you can effectively execute emergency breaking, threshold breaking, or whatever you want to call it at freeway speeds without ABS, unplug your abs take before pictures, go do it 10x, take after pictures, and post. Put your money where your mouth is.

Also, it sounds like you are already hell bent on doing it. Sorry we didn't validate your retardation. Don't forget your helmet

P.S. if you are looking for volunteers to act as your sacrificial lamb, I have a GTI I wouldn't mind being totaled. Please provide proof of insurance
rlomba8204
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Post by rlomba8204 »

Removing ABS is a great idea. And while you're at it, I would pull out the motronic and install a carb, and then also change the rear disk brakes to drums from the 518i. Great ideas all around.
chukrad
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Post by chukrad »

rlomba8204 wrote:Removing ABS is a great idea. And while you're at it, I would pull out the motronic and install a carb, and then also change the rear disk brakes to drums from the 518i. Great ideas all around.
... remove the whole braking system and just cut a hole in the floor board and use your feet to stop. weight reduction :)
trav3000
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Post by trav3000 »

this
Last edited by trav3000 on Jul 29, 2010 8:27 PM, edited 1 time in total.
trav3000
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Post by trav3000 »

chukrad wrote:If you think you can effectively execute emergency breaking, threshold breaking, or whatever you want to call it at freeway speeds without ABS, unplug your abs take before pictures, go do it 10x, take after pictures, and post. Put your money where your mouth is.

Also, it sounds like you are already hell bent on doing it. Sorry we didn't validate your retardation. Don't forget your helmet

P.S. if you are looking for volunteers to act as your sacrificial lamb, I have a GTI I wouldn't mind being totaled. Please provide proof of insurance
obviously you are the retard who doesn't have the patience to read or maybe just doesn't know how, huh? Read the F-ing post.

i'm getting real tire of saying, "I'M JUST CURIOUS". can't a guy ask a question without being bombarded by every jackass on this forum. why don't you a holes get a life!?!
foamy
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Post by foamy »

my old 528e had somtihng wrong with the abs and it dident work ive stoped that car faster than ive ever stoped the new 528e with working abs.
trav3000
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Post by trav3000 »

foamy wrote:my old 528e had somtihng wrong with the abs and it dident work ive stoped that car faster than ive ever stoped the new 528e with working abs.
we should hang out. :)
Jeremy
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Post by Jeremy »

trav3000 wrote:obviously you are the retard who doesn't have the patience to read or maybe just doesn't know how, huh? Read the F-ing post.

i'm getting real tire of saying, "I'M JUST CURIOUS". can't a guy ask a question without being bombarded by every jackass on this forum. why don't you a holes get a life!?!
You're the curious retard jackass who edited all his posts to remove their content. How is anyone supposed to know what you said?

You keep getting "bombarded" because it's a bad idea and you don't seem to comprehend why.
trav3000
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Post by trav3000 »

Jeremy wrote:
trav3000 wrote:obviously you are the retard who doesn't have the patience to read or maybe just doesn't know how, huh? Read the F-ing post.

i'm getting real tire of saying, "I'M JUST CURIOUS". can't a guy ask a question without being bombarded by every jackass on this forum. why don't you a holes get a life!?!
You're the curious retard jackass who edited all his posts to remove their content. How is anyone supposed to know what you said?

You keep getting "bombarded" because it's a bad idea and you don't seem to comprehend why.
if i could delete the whole thing i would. maybe you should have read the thread before you just spew shit from your mouth. just keeping talkin shit in your safe little home. GROW THE FUCK UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
foamy
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Post by foamy »

ive learned over the years if i think the forum is gonna respond like this i just dont post the question is saves 40 billion posts from people that are unsuportive and just say its a bad idea. personely i tihnk the abs on the e28 is a joke. ive had it "work" for me a few times and each time it scares the shit out of me because the the pedel just starts pulsing and slowly getting closer to the floor every time it pulses while the abs unit is buzzing away and the car aint stoping!
Xenocide
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Post by Xenocide »

Jeremy wrote:Your result is true, but your reasoning is faulty. A very good driver can stop a vehicle marginally shorter than ABS, but it's not because of your "snowplow theory". Static friction (tires rotating) is always higher than dynamic friction (tires locked up). A good human driver can typically threshold brake better than ABS will allow, that's why you stop shorter.

As Patrick points out, I'm not sure if that's still the case will a fully modern system, but that 2 or 3 foot "penalty" is worth it to me to know I can hammer the brakes and retain steering control. This is even more true for drivers without a lot of track time.
this x1000
I've never had functioning ABS in any vehicle I've owned. There have been times when I wish I had, but you can certainly cope without it. If you do end up removing it (and I don't think it's a great idea) be absolutely sure that you know how the car will handle at various speeds and in various conditions. The problem is that whenever most people see an obstacle in the road their knee-jerk reaction is to slam on the brakes and swerve. If you don't have ABS and you do this, you'll plow straight into the object. With ABS you have to think a lot less. If you DO go through with this, you need to train yourself to calm down and think before mashing the brakes. The best way to do this is to take a car control or accident avoidance course, they're offered nearly everywhere for not a whole lot of money. If you don't do that, at the very least you should take your car to an abandoned parking lot in the rain and put it into some skids at various speeds. If you know how the car reacts, you'll be much less likely to freak out in an emergency situation.
Shawn D.
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Post by Shawn D. »

foamy wrote:ive learned over the years if i think the forum is gonna respond like this i just dont post the question is saves 40 billion posts from people that are unsuportive and just say its a bad idea.
The problem is the BMWgiant-type of "question" which really isn't a question. Someone has a (bad) idea they've already decided to do, then they "ask" folks' opinions. When they don't get the response they want, they get pissy. Don't ask if you're not man enough to hear the answers.
foamy wrote:personely i tihnk the abs on the e28 is a joke. ive had it "work" for me a few times and each time it scares the shit out of me because the the pedel just starts pulsing and slowly getting closer to the floor every time it pulses while the abs unit is buzzing away and the car aint stoping!
You've either got extremely crappy tires or something is wrong with your ABS. I autocross and get on the brakes very hard and the ABS works great every time.
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