Speakers for rear shelf 87 535is

E28 technical advice asked and given! Troubleshooting, modifications and more.
Mashford
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Speakers for rear shelf 87 535is

Post by Mashford »

Hey — I have been trying to find recommendations for replacement speakers for the rear shelf of my 87 535is. I haven’t found anything specific after looking for a while in Tech Talk. Does anyone have a recommendation? Hoping to not have to do a full sound system assessment, but will if that’s what it takes. For now, one rear speaker is “blown” (the base is rattling and vibrating at low-normal volume), so thought I would replace both. Thanks for any advice/recommendations.
vinceg101
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Re: Speakers for rear shelf 87 535is

Post by vinceg101 »

Given the peculiar and specific speaker wiring BMW used in these cars, if you're not planning on a complete re-wiring and audio system redesign, you're best to just replace the stock speakers with like units.
Do you have the "Premium Sound" system (all laughter aside) or just the standard system? The speakers are different for the Premium system and unfortunately command a premium in price for whatever reason right now. The nice thing about those is you may be able to just replace one of the components with a generic replacement to get the system back to spec.

If you're interested in going down the path of a new system altogether, then that is a whole other kettle of fish with as many differing opinions as the infamous "what is the best engine oil?" questions.
cyclist
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Re: Speakers for rear shelf 87 535is

Post by cyclist »

If you have the premium speakers I might have a stock mid bass driver you can have for the cost of shipping. If you want a upgrade and have a external amp I use focal es130k's which are a drop in replacement for the mid bass drivers. Have to dremel the tweeter location a tad to get the tweeters to work. You need make sure you have a quality amp to run the speakers if going this route as they are power hungry.
vinceg101
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Re: Speakers for rear shelf 87 535is

Post by vinceg101 »

Likewise, if you want to go the whole new system route, I have a set of Premium housings with a/d/s/ 235is components in them sitting in a box that were a vast improvement over stock. But you will need a new amp and crossovers to employ them.
I had them in my previous system until I upgraded to a/d/s/ 300is plates (which are far better than the 235's and have an internal crossovers built in.).
Mashford
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Re: Speakers for rear shelf 87 535is

Post by Mashford »

Thanks, all. Yes, I <<had>> the premium system when I bought the car in 1997. I better at least do a full inventory of what is installed. Ten years ago I had Best Buy in Boulder, CO (the car system guy was solid) put in new speakers at kick board and rear shelf, and I think he had to put in new amp. I don’t know exactly what sort of amperage and such I am dealing with. I think I have all the receipts. I may be back for more help soon. 😐 meanwhile, is one reliable diagnostic to simply put an amp meter on the speaker wires to get a reading? Also, I can get nameplate output from the amp in trunk, right? I believe he bypassed original amp. If memory serves, the new amp may actually be under the rear seat. Time to start reverse engineering! 😅. Also, about 4 years ago I installed a Panasonic radio/Bluetooth/CD/tuner/phone head set and just followed the diagrams for wiring. A bit complicated, but works fine. Hopefully also compatible with rest of system.
Blue Shadow
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Re: Speakers for rear shelf 87 535is

Post by Blue Shadow »

Yup, time to do an inventory of what is there.

You can ohm out the speakers but you will have the dual drivers, woofer and tweeter and the crossover that would be seen by the meter from the speaker wire. Best to ohm out individual drivers sans all the other parts of the speaker system.
Mashford
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Re: Speakers for rear shelf 87 535is

Post by Mashford »

ImageSpeaker 1 by Mike Ashford, on Flickr[/img]

Imagerear speaker by Mike Ashford, on Flickr[/img]

Hey Folks,

Can you see these photos (haven't linked an image in a while -- not sure how to get it to show in the body of the posting -- these appear to take you to my flickr site)?

I honestly didn't know there was a base and tweeter in the back... I thought it was one speaker. In any case, this looks like the original (very heavy). Is this base replaceable?

Meanwhile, the old amp in the trunk is disconnected. It looks like the head unit contains it's own amp (right?). The installer just put in a single cable to the back to connect the rear shelf speakers, which I can trace from the dashboard along the runners to under the rear bench seat and disappearing behind the seat back. I am not sure how to get my eye on the individual connections -- remove the rear bench seat back? Thanks for any advice!!
Mike W.
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Re: Speakers for rear shelf 87 535is

Post by Mike W. »

I ran the premium speakers off a stock head unit in my '85 and it was a nice upgrade over the little stock ones and worked just fine, so the amp is not needed in all applications.

Yeah, Flicker doesn't make it easy to post pics, but these should work.

Image

Image
Mashford
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Re: Speakers for rear shelf 87 535is

Post by Mashford »

Mike W. wrote: Oct 06, 2021 12:53 PM I ran the premium speakers off a stock head unit in my '85 and it was a nice upgrade over the little stock ones and worked just fine, so the amp is not needed in all applications.
Thank you, Mike W., for fixing the photos and chiming in. Good to know your experience was ok, too, with the amp. This is the speaker (picutured) that vibrates horribly when the base is strong in any music. I thought I would see a physical tear or something, but looks intact. I am assuming it needs to be replaced. I am not sure how to test it further. guess I could try to play some music with the speaker out of the housing and detached like this, but I suspect it will just vibrate more.

Meanwhile, do you have recommendations for speakers (type of and where to get) that replace the one in the pictures?

Thanks again
vinceg101
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Re: Speakers for rear shelf 87 535is

Post by vinceg101 »

You haven't mentioned what head unit you have presently in the car (unless I missed that...?). Your bass settings might need adjusting if you're blowing out the bass speakers (e.g. if you have some sort of bass boost setting that needs to be turned off). Also when you say "vibrating" at loud volumes, what exactly are you witnessing: Distortion, rattling, etc? I guess what I'm driving at is it the component speaker itself or the general housing.

Speaker Recommendations:
I have a preference for vintage period correct audio in my E28's and have been finding and using a/d/s/ components almost exclusively for both my '88 535i and '85 M535i. Of course budget is always a concern as is availability (which go hand in hand). I am sure there are suitable other named manufacturers out there like MB Quartz, Clarion, Kenwood, etc. that would be just as good.

The first set of speakers I mentioned earlier were a set of a/d/s/ 235is lows and 346cs tweeters that fit in the BMW housings with little issues (I had to 'nibble' the outer edges of the lip to make the low fit, see photo). I used these first in my '88 and installed the crossovers under the rear parcel tray but soon found that under the rear seat is a much better option. I can't recall if I still have these sitting in a box or if I sold them (I don't recall coming across them recently so maybe I did sell them? If I do still have them they are up for grabs). These sounded great and were a vast improvement over the stock speakers even if they were pretty close to the same age. The bass response is light years above the stock lows.
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

I transferred these from my '88 into the first system for the M535i, but I soon upgraded the rear speakers with a larger set of a/d/s/ components: 325is. Unfortunately these were significantly larger than the 235's so using the BMW housings was not an option. I fabricated my own housings to fit which were (deservedly) mocked; admittedly I could have refined the housings a bit to slim down the size but function-wise these are awesome. They are significantly better performers than the smaller 235's with much better range all-around. I still have these in a box (this I know for sure) and need a home and use if you're interested (including the clunky housings).
Image
Image
Image
Image

For both of these sets I ran them through an a/d/s/ PH15 amp and a/d/s/ 642Csi controller (the very first system in the '88 was with just the 4 speakers and a PQ20 amp; I graduated up to the 6 channel PH15 when I added a subwoofer).
For HU's I had at first a BMW (Blaupunkt) Business CD43 which is pretty decent unit albeit overpriced for what you get. That one went with the car I think.
For the M535i I wanted some modern features like USB, AUX and Bluetooth phone integration. I chose the Kenwood Excelon X895. Good specs but terrible user interface. This HU has very good output an on-board amp so it could push all the speakers in my system if I chose to, but I still ran it all through the a/d/s/ controller and amp.
For the current grand-daddy system in the M535i, I am currently running a vintage Blaupunkt Woodstock SQR88 through a bi-amped a/d/s/ PH15 system. However I am testing a modern Continental HU to see which has better sound and controls. It's a crazy finicky system with a lot of vintage, old parts that have been plaguing me with issues since I first installed this system.
But the sound...oh my.
Mike W.
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Re: Speakers for rear shelf 87 535is

Post by Mike W. »

Mashford wrote: Oct 06, 2021 1:21 PM
Mike W. wrote: Oct 06, 2021 12:53 PM I ran the premium speakers off a stock head unit in my '85 and it was a nice upgrade over the little stock ones and worked just fine, so the amp is not needed in all applications.
Thank you, Mike W., for fixing the photos and chiming in. Good to know your experience was ok, too, with the amp. This is the speaker (picutured) that vibrates horribly when the base is strong in any music. I thought I would see a physical tear or something, but looks intact. I am assuming it needs to be replaced. I am not sure how to test it further. guess I could try to play some music with the speaker out of the housing and detached like this, but I suspect it will just vibrate more.

Meanwhile, do you have recommendations for speakers (type of and where to get) that replace the one in the pictures?

Thanks again
If it's just one speaker out of a pair, it's pretty easy to just say it's a bad speaker. Might be loose where the cone attaches to the voice coil or something. As to what to use? I don't have a clue, I'm way out of date on car stereo stuff.
Mashford
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Re: Speakers for rear shelf 87 535is

Post by Mashford »

Image

Image

I will re-check how to get the URL correct for viewing the photos in the post, but for now, see the links above.

These images are of the model and the specs of the headset, which is also an amp.

Thank you for prompting me to do more diagnostics. I did this upon installation a few years ago, but forgot :oops: ... I manipulated the fade and balance to isolate the driver-side rear speaker, combined woofer and tweeter, and it is actually not producing any sound. That's the speaker of which I posted photos above. The vibration -- [the kind of noise you hear from tricked up cars with super speakers whose drivers, excuse my bias, need to demonstrate their extremely high levels of testosterone, probably due to abuse of supplements from the Vitamin Shoppe... but much less ear shattering in my car] -- is actually coming from the <<passenger>> side rear speaker. When I lowered the "Extra Base" in the headset, the vibration decreased, but it is still hard to completely eliminate. I think in the end that (kudos to the person who reminded me to check that) is right -- I just need to tweak the settings in the amp. There are a bunch of pre-set equalizer modes, but I think I can get to "custom equalizer" settings and tune the low-middle-high ranges to fix the problem... still playing with that (lots of buttons and dials, but I am happy with the headset for blue tooth and phone, very, so far, otherwise).

But that leaves the dead driver side rear speaker to figure out. I will check all the connections, if I can figure out how to access them behind the bench back and/or back for trunk, and report back (if you're still interested :D ).

Thanks for the help!!!
Mashford
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Re: Speakers for rear shelf 87 535is

Post by Mashford »

vinceg101 wrote: Oct 06, 2021 3:14 PM You haven't mentioned what head unit you have presently in the car (unless I missed that...?). Your bass settings might need adjusting if you're blowing out the bass speakers (e.g. if you have some sort of bass boost setting that needs to be turned off). Also when you say "vibrating" at loud volumes, what exactly are you witnessing: Distortion, rattling, etc? I guess what I'm driving at is it the component speaker itself or the general housing.

Speaker Recommendations:
I have a preference for vintage period correct audio in my E28's and have been finding and using a/d/s/ components almost exclusively for both my '88 535i and '85 M535i. Of course budget is always a concern as is availability (which go hand in hand). I am sure there are suitable other named manufacturers out there like MB Quartz, Clarion, Kenwood, etc. that would be just as good.
Thank you vinceg101!!! I may need to replace the woofer and tweeter on driver side rear... :roll:
vinceg101
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Re: Speakers for rear shelf 87 535is

Post by vinceg101 »

Mashford wrote: Oct 07, 2021 9:17 PM But that leaves the dead driver side rear speaker to figure out. I will check all the connections, if I can figure out how to access them behind the bench back and/or back for trunk, and report back (if you're still interested :D ).

Thanks for the help!!!
All the wiring is under the rear parcel shelf. Getting to them is fairly simple, all this is explained in your Bentley (you do have a Bentley, right?):
-Remove the lower rear seat bench. There is one bolt/screw in the center behind the vertical carpet piece. Usually it takes pushing it rear-wards then lifting it up to get it out.
-If you have rear headrests, you have to pull them out of the rear parcel tray. Pull them up sort of vertically but angle them forward to clear the rear window. They will be stuck so they take some effort.
-Remove the upper rear seat back. Two bolts at each side down in the lower corners bolting into the wheel wells. Two more in the center: one at the bottom and the other is behind the center armrest (it's behind the leather cover).
-Lift the back up as it is hooked on two clips on the rear bulkhead (hooked on a horizontal bar on the back of the seat back).
-Carefully pull the seat back out; having two people helps as those two lower brackets in the corners will want to ding your paint as you try to pull it out of the car. It's not heavy just awkward.
-Lift then slide the rear parcel tray forward to get access to the wires underneath the speakers. You can actually pull the entire tray out once you disconnect the speakers and brake light (if you have one) if you want. You don't usually have to unbolt the rear seat belt upper connections as you can slide the tray our under them, it just takes some coordination to clear the seat belts as they get tangled in the tray.

When putting it back in be careful not to damage the rear window defrost elements in the lower corners of rear window. Otherwise re-installation is the reverse of removal. The upper rear seat back takes some effort to hook the rear bar; the back is sort of flexible so you have to apply pressure at those locations pushing the seat back rear-wards then sliding it down. Again, two people help with this as you can each do a side simultaneously. Once it's hooked and hanging on the bar, you can tackle the bolts.

With the rear seat out you have full access to all the wiring running from front to back and into the trunk. There are several access holes into the trunk at each side high and low. This is also how you access the bolts for your rear sub-frame bushings in case you're interested. Also, you can find your cars' build sheet which is usually stuck in the webbing of the rear seat lower bench (if it's still there).

With the rear seat out this would be the time to run all new speaker wires if want; pulling the front seats out and glove box as well as the door sill caps really makes this easy.
vinceg101
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Re: Speakers for rear shelf 87 535is

Post by vinceg101 »

Mashford wrote: Oct 07, 2021 9:17 PM Image

Image

I will re-check how to get the URL correct for viewing the photos in the post, but for now, see the links above.
It's tricky at first, cek did a pretty good tutorial here (albeit a bit more technical):https://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=147488

The process is similar for both Photobucket and flickr but you have to isolate the code in between the [img], there is a url string at the beginning then again behind the img string. However you have to start with the correct code to begin with.
Both PB and flickr have options for sharing images:
PB:
-Select the image and click the share icon
-A window opens with a series of options: Direct Link, Embed, and social media. Choose Embed.
-Next window you need to choose your format. Choose IMG. Then choose the size of the image.
-Click the Copy button to the left of the code string
-Come back here and paste the code string, then set about removing the url strings

Flickr:
-Somewhat the same as PB, except here you choose BBCode instead of Embed
-Select the size of the image then click in the code window to highlight it all, hit your Copy command
-Come back here and paste the code string and remove the extraneous url coding
Mike W.
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Re: Speakers for rear shelf 87 535is

Post by Mike W. »

Hmmm, I'm not seeing those options. I just went into "view page source" and looked for the direct link in there. A little geeky, but they piss me off when they make it difficult.
Mashford
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Re: Speakers for rear shelf 87 535is

Post by Mashford »

All the wiring is under the rear parcel shelf. Getting to them is fairly simple, all this is explained in your Bentley (you do have a Bentley,
Yes, I do. Much worn and used!

Thanks!
vinceg101
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Re: Speakers for rear shelf 87 535is

Post by vinceg101 »

Mike W. wrote: Oct 08, 2021 12:25 PM Hmmm, I'm not seeing those options. I just went into "view page source" and looked for the direct link in there. A little geeky, but they piss me off when they make it difficult.
In flikr or PB? On the PC or a phone? The flickr website or their app?
In flikr on a PC (Win10P) on their website, after you upload the photo, click (once, not double) to open it in a window (if you have them organized into albums then open the album first, then select a photo; however it works the same in the Photostream also).

Down in the lower right corner should be four icons: Edit (paper & pencil), Share (the side arrow), Download (the down arrow) and Purchase (shopping cart).
Click on the Share arrow and a dialog box opens in the middle of your screen with these options across the top:
Share, Embed, Email, and BBCode. Select BBCode and the url code shows up in the internal box below that.

Select the image size you want and click on the code to highlight it. Copy it and bring it over here.

PB is an almost identical process with the exceptions I noted earlier.
Mike W.
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Re: Speakers for rear shelf 87 535is

Post by Mike W. »

vinceg101 wrote: Oct 08, 2021 4:23 PM
Mike W. wrote: Oct 08, 2021 12:25 PM Hmmm, I'm not seeing those options. I just went into "view page source" and looked for the direct link in there. A little geeky, but they piss me off when they make it difficult.
In flikr or PB? On the PC or a phone? The flickr website or their app?
In flikr on a PC (Win10P) on their website, after you upload the photo, click (once, not double) to open it in a window (if you have them organized into albums then open the album first, then select a photo; however it works the same in the Photostream also).

Down in the lower right corner should be four icons: Edit (paper & pencil), Share (the side arrow), Download (the down arrow) and Purchase (shopping cart).
Click on the Share arrow and a dialog box opens in the middle of your screen with these options across the top:
Share, Embed, Email, and BBCode. Select BBCode and the url code shows up in the internal box below that.

Select the image size you want and click on the code to highlight it. Copy it and bring it over here.

PB is an almost identical process with the exceptions I noted earlier.
Flicker on a PC, Win 7, I can go on a good rant about Win 10 for at least 20 minutes, but I'll spare you. I've got my fingers crossed for improvements in Win 11 when it becomes the standard.

Anyway, single click enlarges it, but no options. There are 3 icons at the lower right, favorites, share and download, but no edit or BBcode. Not the first time I've resorted to doing things the hard way, but I usually find a way to make it work.
vinceg101
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Re: Speakers for rear shelf 87 535is

Post by vinceg101 »

Mike W. wrote: Oct 08, 2021 8:33 PMAnyway, single click enlarges it, but no options. There are 3 icons at the lower right, favorites, share and download, but no edit or BBcode. Not the first time I've resorted to doing things the hard way, but I usually find a way to make it work.
You have to hit the Share icon first before you can see the next window with the BBCode as an option.
Mashford
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Re: Speakers for rear shelf 87 535is

Post by Mashford »

Just checking in / updating here: I got the rear seat out and the shelf free -- thank you for the detailed instructions on getting it all out. They really helped. I did have to unbolt the seatbelts -- I think the IS model has more stuff on them that wasn't going let me work around.

The speaker was disconnected! I reconnected and played and indeed the base rattle noise returned. But now I could see it and touch it and determined it really was shot. It is the original -- dried brown varnished paper construction, or so it appears. The passenger side has a part number that comes up for what I think is the e34, or e36 (?), so I ordered one from eBay. I hope it will work. I am trying to post photos below from flkr account. And so I continue on.

ImageIMG_2259 by Mike Ashford, on Flickr[/img]

ImageIMG_2260 by Mike Ashford, on Flickr[/img]

Imagerear speaker by Mike Ashford, on Flickr[/img]
Mashford
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Re: Speakers for rear shelf 87 535is

Post by Mashford »

Mashford wrote: Nov 14, 2021 9:40 PM Just checking in / updating here: I got the rear seat out and the shelf free -- thank you for the detailed instructions on getting it all out. They really helped. I did have to unbolt the seatbelts -- I think the IS model has more stuff on them that wasn't going let me work around.
Hey Folks,

Does anyone have a speaker for rear shelf (driver side) of an '87 535is with the "special" sound system -- doesn't have to be special, just working. I have one replacement (used) and, after several months of getting the car back together again, the replacement speaker doesn't work. I will as the kind seller if it is not too late to try to swap, but in the meantime, I am 99% sure if I can get one with this label on the back, it will work:

Image

Thanks!
Mike
kojo96
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Re: Speakers for rear shelf 87 535is

Post by kojo96 »

OP, if you're talking about this particular speaker (above) -
"For now, one rear speaker is “blown” (the base is rattling and vibrating at low-normal volume), so thought I would replace both. Thanks for any advice/recommendations."

It may be a easy repair, what you are describing is very common and and an easy fix. If the speaker is making sound, it very well may be that the rubber "ring" has lost it's ability to seal and will cause the exact symptom you are describing. Pull the speaker out and on a desk, gently try to lift the rubber ring, dollar to a donut it's loose and will cause the exact symptom you are having. The fix is to GENTLY lift that rubber ring and glue it down, do so on the entire bottom surface (use a quality glue). When done, place something with a little weight on top to get a good seal. Should be good after that. Image for referance to the ring

Image
Mashford
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Re: Speakers for rear shelf 87 535is

Post by Mashford »

kojo96 wrote: May 15, 2022 8:58 PM OP, if you're talking about this particular speaker (above) -
"For now, one rear speaker is “blown” (the base is rattling and vibrating at low-normal volume), so thought I would replace both. Thanks for any advice/recommendations."

It may be a easy repair, what you are describing is very common and and an easy fix. If the speaker is making sound, it very well may be that the rubber "ring" has lost it's ability to seal and will cause the exact symptom you are describing. Pull the speaker out and on a desk, gently try to lift the rubber ring, dollar to a donut it's loose and will cause the exact symptom you are having. The fix is to GENTLY lift that rubber ring and glue it down, do so on the entire bottom surface (use a quality glue). When done, place something with a little weight on top to get a good seal. Should be good after that. Image for referance to the ring
Thanks. I pulled the speaker and indeed it was loose on one side, and the rest came up all around the circumference with light pressure... it seems to have been coming off. Any recommendations for a quality glue? Would E6000 do the trick?
Joey28
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Re: Speakers for rear shelf 87 535is

Post by Joey28 »

Mashford wrote: May 16, 2022 8:06 AM
kojo96 wrote: May 15, 2022 8:58 PM OP, if you're talking about this particular speaker (above) -
"For now, one rear speaker is “blown” (the base is rattling and vibrating at low-normal volume), so thought I would replace both. Thanks for any advice/recommendations."

It may be a easy repair, what you are describing is very common and and an easy fix. If the speaker is making sound, it very well may be that the rubber "ring" has lost it's ability to seal and will cause the exact symptom you are describing. Pull the speaker out and on a desk, gently try to lift the rubber ring, dollar to a donut it's loose and will cause the exact symptom you are having. The fix is to GENTLY lift that rubber ring and glue it down, do so on the entire bottom surface (use a quality glue). When done, place something with a little weight on top to get a good seal. Should be good after that. Image for referance to the ring
Thanks. I pulled the speaker and indeed it was loose on one side, and the rest came up all around the circumference with light pressure... it seems to have been coming off. Any recommendations for a quality glue? Would E6000 do the trick?
I used these guys for a repair kit for my parents' Toyota Sienna door speakers that had bad foam rings:

https://www.speakerworks.com/foam-surro ... g-s/63.htm

I was happy with them. Provided they have a size to match.
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