Sam's 10:1 Motor Build 10/13 survived 2nd track event

E28 technical advice asked and given! Troubleshooting, modifications and more.
LeiseyJr
Posts: 1306
Joined: Dec 22, 2013 11:11 PM
Location: Houston,Tx

Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build 8/15 Cam Break-In and Oil leaks

Post by LeiseyJr »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixq2RXS9vNE

Vid of cam being broken in, car runs and drives. After taking it around the block in the rain, left a rainbow trail. Leaking oil from pressure sender, and dripping all the way down to passenger side. So I put a new crush washer on last night, fired it up this morning no oil under sender now. Think its fixed, we'll take it on much longer drive after work today.

On the drive around the block, I was not uhh blown away yet. I guess because rings still need to be seated in,it has more torque and a bit more responsive. However am not blown away yet by performance, so hopefully once rings seat in and we get past 500 miles. I can start slowly working it to redline and I will be impressed.
LeiseyJr
Posts: 1306
Joined: Dec 22, 2013 11:11 PM
Location: Houston,Tx

Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build 8/13 FIRST START

Post by LeiseyJr »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J64xwbJTQw0

Cold Start this morning, not ecstatic about oil light. It's just a M30 thing from what I have seen, literally staring at death light. Last engine had a rebuilt oil pump and still did that. I put 75ish miles on it yesterday, and it's been doing well. Throttle Response is good, seem like it has a lot of torque. This motor will be strong, haven't been able to make it ping yet. Going up a hill in 3rd and 4th, at as much load as I could give it. The 4k rpm limit is not fun, but gotta do what you gotta do. I think it will be broken in by 500, Dad is saying just go to the full thousand.

For the first time car isn't noticeably running rich as far as I can tell. I have no way to tell if I am leaning out, I can hook up narrowband gauge later I guess. I just want to make sure motor isn't leaning out, if I know the exact AFRs that will lead down rabbit hole. However I want to verify its safe
athayer187
Posts: 1575
Joined: May 10, 2006 11:27 AM
Location: Meriden, CT

Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build 8/16 Morning Start

Post by athayer187 »

That's a looong oil light - do you have a gauge? What oil filter housing are you using - and what block? If you're using a housing that was not original to the block (mixing generations), there is an opportunity to make a mistake there. There's a hole that can be plugged to prevent drainback.

One way to check - let the motor cool off for a while and pull the oil filter housing - it should still be full.

Also - I didn't read back, but what oil are you using and what were your bearing clearances?
LeiseyJr
Posts: 1306
Joined: Dec 22, 2013 11:11 PM
Location: Houston,Tx

Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build 8/16 Morning Start

Post by LeiseyJr »

athayer187 wrote:That's a looong oil light - do you have a gauge? What oil filter housing are you using - and what block? If you're using a housing that was not original to the block (mixing generations), there is an opportunity to make a mistake there. There's a hole that can be plugged to prevent drainback.

One way to check - let the motor cool off for a while and pull the oil filter housing - it should still be full.

Also - I didn't read back, but what oil are you using and what were your bearing clearances?
A BRAND NEW GENUINE BMW B34 oil filter head on a B34 block, and it still somehow is draining back into block. On last motor when it did this, we installed gauge. Verified that it's having to fill oil filter housing, pressures are rock solid when it fills up. Using 20w50 Lucas Break In Oil, bearing clearances are a number. Crank was checked by machine shop, and was still in spec so slapped Genuine BMW rod bearings. We don't use Plasti-Gauge.
nik77356
Posts: 556
Joined: Oct 21, 2011 5:49 PM
Location: Your Mom's House

Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build 8/16 Morning Start

Post by nik77356 »

How does a B34 Oil Filter Housing drain back into the block? It'd be one thing if it was a B35 Oil Filter Housing, but with the Canister being below the Filter Housing Head on the B34, I'm not sure how it would drain back into the block.
LeiseyJr
Posts: 1306
Joined: Dec 22, 2013 11:11 PM
Location: Houston,Tx

Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build 8/16 Morning Start

Post by LeiseyJr »

nik77356 wrote:How does a B34 Oil Filter Housing drain back into the block? It'd be one thing if it was a B35 Oil Filter Housing, but with the Canister being below the Filter Housing Head on the B34, I'm not sure how it would drain back into the block.
It just does, it makes no sense. That’s just what it does :/
LeiseyJr
Posts: 1306
Joined: Dec 22, 2013 11:11 PM
Location: Houston,Tx

Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build 8/16 Morning Start

Post by LeiseyJr »

400 miles on it so far, so far all is well.
LeiseyJr
Posts: 1306
Joined: Dec 22, 2013 11:11 PM
Location: Houston,Tx

Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build 8/27 750 Miles Update

Post by LeiseyJr »

Got a wideband installed, and engine has crested 750 miles. Rocker arm eccentric slipped, making a 50 mile drive home nerve wracking. Thought I broke a rocker arm, misfiring and loud tappey sounds. Ireland really needs hardware tight tight, unlike Febi's. Cam looked good, did oil/filter change at 750. Filter only had plastic bits in it from plastic timing components from before.

Afrs are 12.7-13.0 at idle, part throttle is whats spooky. If you get into it and above 4k dips into 13's and keeps going down. However in most normal cruising its like high 14's to can go up to 15.5. I think its right, just seems lean. No bucking, pinging etc to indicate engine not liking it. I would love to fatten it up there, but we'll see how afrs are once I hit 1000miles and can go full throttle. Then I might due to some good ol' AFR tuning. Reason I say its lean, is because Frtiz said 13.7 at 3700-4000 rpm, but not at what throttle input. So... we'll see how it goes. Hasn't blown up yet.
bafbaf
Posts: 166
Joined: Jun 20, 2014 1:09 PM
Location: Minnesota

Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build 8/16 Morning Start

Post by bafbaf »

If you look at my ECU interceptor project (http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=139141), about 5 or 6 or so posts in, I posted my fuel map. I've been using this map on my 10:1 motor for several years now. Notice that low-load cruise AFRs are in the 16's. In tests, I've run up to 19:1, but the throttle response is poor. My current cruise AFR is 15.6:1 which is a good compromise between MPG and throttle response.

HOWEVER, this map is implemented in my hardware and (more importantly) is controlled in closed-loop by the wideband sensor. I'd be pretty nervous about running this open loop, especially with the WOT values. I my setup, I only stay open-loop for a max of 60 seconds, typically 15 sec on a warm start.

For the stock ECU, closed loop control is only possible at 14.7:1. WOT is open loop at around 12.5:1, but is based on the closed-loop trim values.

EDIT:
For modern 3-way catalysts, running at the stoichiometric ratio of 14.7:1 is the only operating point that optimizes both NOx and CO emissions. Leaner than stoich: the cat cannot break down NOx. Richer: CO levels rise rapidly.
Last edited by bafbaf on Aug 28, 2019 5:09 PM, edited 1 time in total.
LeiseyJr
Posts: 1306
Joined: Dec 22, 2013 11:11 PM
Location: Houston,Tx

Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build 8/16 Morning Start

Post by LeiseyJr »

bafbaf wrote:If you look at my ECU interceptor project (http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=139141), about 5 or 6 or so posts in, I posted my fuel map. I've been using this map on my 10:1 motor for several years now. Notice that low-load cruise AFRs are in the 16's. In tests, I've run up to 19:1, but the throttle response is poor. My current cruise AFR is 15.6:1 which is a good compromise between MPG and throttle response.

HOWEVER, this map is implemented in my hardware and (more importantly) is controlled in closed-loop by the wideband sensor. I'd be pretty nervous about running this open loop, especially with the WOT values. I my setup, I only stay open-loop for a max of 60 seconds, typically 15 sec on a warm start.

For the stock ECU, closed loop control is only possible at 14.7:1. WOT is open loop at around 12.5:1, but is based on the closed-loop trim values.
Good to know those AFRS are so safe. However 061 has no 02 sensor, it just does what it thinks its supposed to do.

Just plugged in a stock tune for shits and giggles, map seems slightly richer overall, reading Alpina article theyre main goal was not onpy to increase power but mpg’s. So probably why map is a bit leaner throughout.
bafbaf
Posts: 166
Joined: Jun 20, 2014 1:09 PM
Location: Minnesota

Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build 8/16 Morning Start

Post by bafbaf »

You can get away with a lot at partial throttle (rich/lean, timing too advanced, etc.). Closer to WOT and high RPM, it's a different matter because the heat input from combustion is so much higher and the effects of pinging (detonation) are more destructive.

If you're going to play with fuel and timing, do the fuel first. The AFR determines the speed of combustion and therefore the amount of timing that the engine needs. Once you get the fueling figured out, then you can work on the timing.

On my (long) list of projects is an ion-sensing ignition module. The idea is that you can monitor the combustion pressure by the amount of current flowing across the spark plug just after the spark is fired. By monitoring pressure, you can optimize (automatically is the goal here) engine timing as well as sense knock/pinging. I will definitely add that to the interceptor thread if it becomes a reality.
cek
Posts: 8748
Joined: Mar 18, 2013 6:25 PM
Location: əʞɐl ʇlɐs puɐ əlʇʇɐəs
Contact:

Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build 8/16 Morning Start

Post by cek »

bafbaf wrote: On my (long) list of projects is an ion-sensing ignition module. The idea is that you can monitor the combustion pressure by the amount of current flowing across the spark plug just after the spark is fired. By monitoring pressure, you can optimize (automatically is the goal here) engine timing as well as sense knock/pinging. I will definitely add that to the interceptor thread if it becomes a reality.
Ok, you have my attention.
athayer187
Posts: 1575
Joined: May 10, 2006 11:27 AM
Location: Meriden, CT

Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build 8/16 Morning Start

Post by athayer187 »

Works really well on boosted Saabs. There's a huuuuge amount of resources available from those guys too.
LeiseyJr
Posts: 1306
Joined: Dec 22, 2013 11:11 PM
Location: Houston,Tx

Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build 9/1 Pulls

Post by LeiseyJr »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bGj6SPrEvA

Got 1000 miles on it, and this is 4 miles later. Very happy with the results
LeiseyJr
Posts: 1306
Joined: Dec 22, 2013 11:11 PM
Location: Houston,Tx

Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build 9/1 1-4th Gear Pulls Vid

Post by LeiseyJr »

I plugged in old Korman ECU, and funnily enough. It's perfect. It has 14.7 AFRs at all part throttle conditions, that I cruise at. WITH NO 02 SENSOR, WOT is deep 11's so losing power there. Idle is 14.0ish sometimes 14.7, but usually low 14's. So this whole time I had perfect chip, the B10 tune is a good spare chip to have. If I run a 02 sensor will probably be even better, but wideband is occupying that bung hole. Might try to wire in the innovate, narrow-band function.

I need to get it dyno'd. See how slow it really is
tschultz
Posts: 3906
Joined: Mar 01, 2009 8:58 PM
Location: Denver, Colorado
Contact:

Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build 9/1 1-4th Gear Pulls Vid

Post by tschultz »

I always enjoy these updates.
LeiseyJr
Posts: 1306
Joined: Dec 22, 2013 11:11 PM
Location: Houston,Tx

Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build 9/27 Problems to Address:

Post by LeiseyJr »

So as a road trip or daily car this engine setup is mint. However I have a very small brain, and I track my car as well as daily it. So some issues arrived on track:

Heatsoak AFRs, we were dipping into low 10's. Which is trash for motor, hp and laptimes. This is really annoying because at part throttle and idle AFRS are perfect. But what're you gonna do, so I will finally be going with a Miller WAR chip. Maybe with MAF?

On one part of the track if I left it in 3rd in one part where it would inhale like 1/4 quart of oil. I didn't add head restrictors again because I just don't trust that on daily motor idling in traffic and doing starts. So a catch can will be added, to avoid scaring everyone with giant clouds of burnt oil.

Temperatures does climb to middle after 15 min, so an oil cooler is probably a good idea.

Again those are track day specific issues really, other then WAR I guess. I knew this was probably going to have to happen, but now I can say I tried chips and ecu's. It was a solid attempt.

2410 miles are on it
bafbaf
Posts: 166
Joined: Jun 20, 2014 1:09 PM
Location: Minnesota

Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build 9/1 1-4th Gear Pulls Vid

Post by bafbaf »

I just added one to my engine last weekend. Took me a while to figure out a good location for it. This is what I came up with:
Image

Turns out that the 1/2" fuel/PCV line just jams perfectly into the breather port on the intake.

I'm not a big fan of the large print "OIL CATCH CAN", but for $25 I can't complain too much (I tried removing the print with various chemicals, but it resisted all of my efforts). I also need to reroute the vacuum lines better than the picture shows, but that's a different issue.
Tiit
Posts: 202
Joined: Oct 06, 2017 6:27 AM
Location: Canberra

Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build 9/1 1-4th Gear Pulls Vid

Post by Tiit »

Enlarged intake manifold? What effect does it have?
WVe28
Posts: 2115
Joined: Jul 29, 2007 8:57 AM
Location: Charleston, WV

Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build 9/1 1-4th Gear Pulls Vid

Post by WVe28 »

Tiit wrote:Enlarged intake manifold? What effect does it have?
Increasing intake plenum volume supposedly reduces vacuum and increases the air supply available for combustion at high RPM.
WVe28
Posts: 2115
Joined: Jul 29, 2007 8:57 AM
Location: Charleston, WV

Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build 9/27 Problems to Address:

Post by WVe28 »

LeiseyJr wrote: MillerWAR chip
This far in, I imagine you'll eventually go standalone anyway. I've yet to find anyone fully satisfied with the WAR chip and with standalone your options multiply...
bafbaf
Posts: 166
Joined: Jun 20, 2014 1:09 PM
Location: Minnesota

Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build 9/1 1-4th Gear Pulls Vid

Post by bafbaf »

WVe28 wrote:
Tiit wrote:Enlarged intake manifold? What effect does it have?
Increasing intake plenum volume supposedly reduces vacuum and increases the air supply available for combustion at high RPM.
Based on my data logging (both airflow and injector pulse width), the only effect was to increase my TIG welding skills. My butt dyno says that I gained a tiny amount of low end torque. Too bad I didn't run some before/after dyno tests.
adam_poll
Posts: 70
Joined: Jul 23, 2014 8:19 PM
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada

Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build 9/1 1-4th Gear Pulls Vid

Post by adam_poll »

Did you try any modifications to the inside of the valve cover to try to keep oil out of the intake like in the other thread? I just did mine but I haven't had a chance to get back on track to see if it helps.
LeiseyJr
Posts: 1306
Joined: Dec 22, 2013 11:11 PM
Location: Houston,Tx

Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build 9/27 Problems to Address:

Post by LeiseyJr »

WVe28 wrote:
LeiseyJr wrote: MillerWAR chip
This far in, I imagine you'll eventually go standalone anyway. I've yet to find anyone fully satisfied with the WAR chip and with standalone your options multiply...
My father is quite satasfied with Miller. The tuner he found is quite good, we already have laptop and base tune. To rewire for standalone just doesn’t really make sense. As well as cost aspect of it.

I mean its a stock euro motor with a mild cam, if I have to go full standalone seems excessive. I could tune with eproms, but since we already have laptop and I came across a extra 28 pin ecu for dirt cheap. It’s why I am picking WAR (already ordered) this time around.
Last edited by LeiseyJr on Sep 28, 2019 11:17 PM, edited 1 time in total.
LeiseyJr
Posts: 1306
Joined: Dec 22, 2013 11:11 PM
Location: Houston,Tx

Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build 9/1 1-4th Gear Pulls Vid

Post by LeiseyJr »

adam_poll wrote:Did you try any modifications to the inside of the valve cover to try to keep oil out of the intake like in the other thread? I just did mine but I haven't had a chance to get back on track to see if it helps.
Dad modified a valve cover, but I keep forgetting to grab hardware to reattach the baffle cover. So I havent tried it yet. However with the sheer volume of oil, Id rather just let it go to catch can. Empty it after a trackday, as thats only time it should fill excessively
Last edited by LeiseyJr on Sep 28, 2019 11:19 PM, edited 1 time in total.
Post Reply