Sam's 10:1 Motor Build 10/13 survived 2nd track event

E28 technical advice asked and given! Troubleshooting, modifications and more.
athayer187
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build Updates Tuning Ramble 6/10

Post by athayer187 »

Here's my 2 cents (for what it's worth, I have a built motor running Miller MAF/WAR chip on M1.3):

You're building a big boy motor with big boy parts, an off the shelf tune might "work" but will never be optimal. Go tunable, go M1.3 with either WAR chip or Megasquirt. I understand that this is your daily, that's a big cliff to jump off when you're relying on this as transportation to school/work. If I were you, I'd build the motor and let it sit on a shelf until I had a second car for daily transportation (I know this isn't what you want to hear, but I don't like to gamble with my source of income). I used to drive my car to the track - all up and down the east coast. The first big tow bill makes you re-think that. That's when I bought a truck and trailer.

WAR chip:
- Tunable, but your tuner will need patience. The biggest drawback is that you have to do a pull on the dyno, shut the car off, re-flash, and then do another pull. It's not real-time tunable. Luckily for me, I had a good and patient tuner. It cost me at least another $5-600 of dyno time though.
- My tune has been the same for the last 4 years. One thing that makes you not want to mess with it is that the Miller software requires Windows XP. I have one dedicated laptop for that function, but it's very long in the tooth. Makes me not want to mess with it just for the sake of changes.

MS:
- Real time tunable - this will save you hours of tuning time ($$$).
- Very steep learning curve

If I had to do it again knowing what I know now, I might have made more of an effort to go to Megasquirt. That said I don't regret the path I've taken. Someone else's tune for either path might get you in the ballpark, but not optimized (there's too many variables). I used CEK's tune as a baseline since we used the same pistons and similar cam, but it still required significant changes to optimize.

Hope this helps.
LeiseyJr
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build Updates Tuning Ramble 6/10

Post by LeiseyJr »

athayer187 wrote:Here's my 2 cents (for what it's worth, I have a built motor running Miller MAF/WAR chip on M1.3):

You're building a big boy motor with big boy parts, an off the shelf tune might "work" but will never be optimal. Go tunable, go M1.3 with either WAR chip or Megasquirt. I understand that this is your daily, that's a big cliff to jump off when you're relying on this as transportation to school/work. If I were you, I'd build the motor and let it sit on a shelf until I had a second car for daily transportation (I know this isn't what you want to hear, but I don't like to gamble with my source of income). I used to drive my car to the track - all up and down the east coast. The first big tow bill makes you re-think that. That's when I bought a truck and trailer.

WAR chip:
- Tunable, but your tuner will need patience. The biggest drawback is that you have to do a pull on the dyno, shut the car off, re-flash, and then do another pull. It's not real-time tunable. Luckily for me, I had a good and patient tuner. It cost me at least another $5-600 of dyno time though.
- My tune has been the same for the last 4 years. One thing that makes you not want to mess with it is that the Miller software requires Windows XP. I have one dedicated laptop for that function, but it's very long in the tooth. Makes me not want to mess with it just for the sake of changes.

MS:
- Real time tunable - this will save you hours of tuning time ($$$).
- Very steep learning curve

If I had to do it again knowing what I know now, I might have made more of an effort to go to Megasquirt. That said I don't regret the path I've taken. Someone else's tune for either path might get you in the ballpark, but not optimized (there's too many variables). I used CEK's tune as a baseline since we used the same pistons and similar cam, but it still required significant changes to optimize.

Hope this helps.
If the Korman chip runs like shit I will be jumping in the rabbit hole.

I luckily have a good patient tuner as well, it costed my dad around $600 in dyno time like you, we have all the junk to mess with it like the XP laptop. The switch to WAR I don't mind as much as switch to 1.3 due to all of my 1.3 components being unknown. I guess my biggest question is what is the gain from going M1.0 to M1.3 if I am getting it professionally tuned? My fathers motor is stock 10:1 on WAR 059 and it made pretty good power. He daily it 60 miles a day a lot of stop and go with M1.0. It gets the job done.

The 2nd car is something I have been considering, when the Burgundy is done for paint I can borrow the E92 M3 but I hate driving that car and borrowing a vehicle. My car does need rust repair and this whole engine thing, I have been considering a 2nd car temporarily to iron out all these bugs and get rust fixed.

ImageDyno Dirty b34 by samleisey, on Flickr
LeiseyJr
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build Updates Tuning Ramble 6/10

Post by LeiseyJr »

I just called Korman, Carl the parts car is very nice. I am putting this here for notes for myself:

10:1 with a cam is on the cusp of cylinder pressures for 93. So I could be fine but if I hear anything though, I need to get a new chip burned which would take some power out due to losing some ignition. His e30 m3 runs 10:5 with Schrick 292 on 93.

Break-In on the rings: run 30W non-detergent oil, vary RPM, half throttle basically cant beat on it hard hard until about 3k miles on it really. Basically what the break-in oil says what was new was the 30W oil and no synthetic. I never run synthetic, just ZDP heavy oil Anyway.
athayer187
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build Updates Tuning Ramble 6/10

Post by athayer187 »

Remember, you'll be breaking in a cam too. I prescribe to the ~2000 RPM for 20-30 minutes method (I used a string tied somewhere under the hood to hold the throttle so I could poke around with a flashlight and mirror):

http://www.compcams.com/Instructions/Fi ... P4-115.pdf

Then let everything cool off and do the final torque on the head bolts.
cek
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build Updates Tuning Ramble 6/10

Post by cek »

You know my opinion on Miller.

I'm curious to see what this motor does compared to mine (10.5:1, Paul Burke N21, BavAuto headers, WAR).
LeiseyJr
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Joined: Dec 22, 2013 11:11 PM
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build Updates Tuning Ramble 6/10

Post by LeiseyJr »

cek wrote:You know my opinion on Miller.

I'm curious to see what this motor does compared to mine (10.5:1, Paul Burke N21, BavAuto headers, WAR).
I mean our setups will be very similar, as my Schrick 284 is a pretty mild grind like yours duration wise. Not sure how they compare on lift. We'll have same compression for the most part, however I'll have stock B34 head.

I mean my dads made 195 whp on a dyno that under reads supposedly with a complete stock euro b34 w/b35 valves (no porting), just rebuilt . It has two mods which is header and the WAR chip and retains a stock afm with 19lb injectors. It feels e36 m3 fast and that would match up with dyno numbers. I would be more then happy with 200whp with a non ideal chip but ideally 215whp would be great with a good tune.

It's pretty amazing how much they detuned the US B34's after feeling my dads motor.
Mike W.
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build Updates Tuning Ramble 6/10

Post by Mike W. »

LeiseyJr wrote: It's pretty amazing how much they detuned the US B34's after feeling my dads motor.
Yeah but... You've got to consider the era. A Ford Crown Vic with a 5.0 was a whopping 140HP. Chevy was more at 165 again for a 5.0, Chrysler was getting 143 out of a 5.3 or 175 out of a 5.9. MB with it's fine German engineering was only at 184 out of a 5.0. In that context it's a wonder it had as much as it did.
LeiseyJr
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build Updates Tuning Ramble 6/10

Post by LeiseyJr »

I wasted a whole paycheck on oil pump (thanks Nick) and this bad boy


Image
Thanks wkohler, now I can never ask myself what a 061 would've been like. It'll be my "base tune" if it pings I'll just back down the switch inside for the ign timing. Two reasonings for buying this, it should run the car without pinging for break in perfectly fine. It's reflowed so it was actually a good deal. It'll plug right in and work.

When its broken in I'll look into getting "optimal" performance, whether that be a chip or Miller.

My father measured bores and they still checked out perfectly fine. He's quite meticulous with measuring and engines. I'm uhh not that way why he's in charge of the bottom end. All is coming measuring well.

Just waiting to purchase rocker arms, figuring out oil cooler situation (haha more fucking money) and block to go to and come back from machine shop so they can flush it and check for any cracks. Then it should all be putting it back together.
LeiseyJr
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build Updates found a ecu 6/14

Post by LeiseyJr »

Needed to replace this chewed up sprocket
ImageUntitled by samleisey, on Flickr

Removed from the parts crank
ImageUntitled by samleisey, on Flickr

A little heat
ImageUntitled by samleisey, on Flickr

Slid right on, its just that easy
ImageUntitled by samleisey, on Flickr

Dad was the brains of the operation for the sprocket conversion

Also found out my old cam was a regrind of a Schrick, but now we have a actual Schrick
ImageUntitled by samleisey, on Flickr

More Water testing
ImageUntitled by samleisey, on Flickr

ImageUntitled by samleisey, on Flickr

ImageUntitled by samleisey, on Flickr

Just need rocker arms and head will be done

Something interesting to not, early cars as well as the double chains used a locking plate on the big nut
ImageUntitled by samleisey, on Flickr
LeiseyJr
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build Updates Dual Chain Sprocket 6/16

Post by LeiseyJr »

Cheaped out and bought febi's instead of HD rocker arms. I'll only be revving it to 6800 max Anyway, hopefully they wont break. Another 061 is also on the way
LeiseyJr
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build Updates Dual Chain Sprocket 6/16

Post by LeiseyJr »

I will be returning the Febi's it feels wrong to cheap out on a "dream" build. Going to get the HD's

Anyway, block is at the machine shop getting decked as well as getting all the oil passages cleaned out of metal we have found in the engine. We plan to reuse the main bearings as they look perfect and Bentley says you can. They were OE BMW bearings put in in 1st rebuild, and it'd be hard to put in OEM bearings even though it's probably the same.
Mike W.
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build Updates Dual Chain Sprocket 6/16

Post by Mike W. »

LeiseyJr wrote:I will be returning the Febi's it feels wrong to cheap out on a "dream" build. Going to get the HD's

Anyway, block is at the machine shop getting decked as well as getting all the oil passages cleaned out of metal we have found in the engine. We plan to reuse the main bearings as they look perfect and Bentley says you can. They were OE BMW bearings put in in 1st rebuild, and it'd be hard to put in OEM bearings even though it's probably the same.
I'll often reuse mains if they look good. A takeoff on an old Baseball line, rods and rings and save the mains, meaning new rod bearings and Rings but reuse the mains.
LeiseyJr
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build Updates Dual Chain Sprocket 6/16

Post by LeiseyJr »

Mike W. wrote:
LeiseyJr wrote:I will be returning the Febi's it feels wrong to cheap out on a "dream" build. Going to get the HD's

Anyway, block is at the machine shop getting decked as well as getting all the oil passages cleaned out of metal we have found in the engine. We plan to reuse the main bearings as they look perfect and Bentley says you can. They were OE BMW bearings put in in 1st rebuild, and it'd be hard to put in OEM bearings even though it's probably the same.
I'll often reuse mains if they look good. A takeoff on an old Baseball line, rods and rings and save the mains, meaning new rod bearings and Rings but reuse the mains.
That was my exact plan. Sadly have copper showing on the Thrust Bearings part of one of the main bearing from my clutch kicks I guess.... so will be new getting ones of those too.
LeiseyJr
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build Updates Dual Chain Sprocket 6/16

Post by LeiseyJr »

Chip got here.
ImageChip stuffs by samleisey, on Flickr

I just wanted to install it verify it worked, and in the process I broke this 061 chip. Somone engraved build date and chip so presumably its been fucked with. I ended its life, removed chips dozens of times. Never had this happen I feel dumb.

ImageChip stuffs by samleisey, on Flickr

ImageChip stuffs by samleisey, on Flickr

Chips works and has noticeably more timing then 061 so it'll probably ping. Still gonna try it, if it pings back it down to Group A. If that doesnt work, I'll rock a stock chip.

Tuning side is all here though. A stock ecu and tuned ecu and the rockers will be ordered tomorrow.
LeiseyJr
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build Updates Dual Chain Sprocket 6/16

Post by LeiseyJr »

Fritz had an extra stock chip he just sent, this is looking like it will have to be expedited if current motor does have head-gasket issues. Orders are to leave it in running until this one is ready to be swapped.
LeiseyJr
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build Updates Dual Chain Sprocket 6/16

Post by LeiseyJr »

Just added motor cost up (on 1st page) and I feel like a

Image


for doing all this for 200whp. I believe that's all the cost though so far. All the parts should be here for when block comes back for assembly and swap.
Tiit
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build Updates Cost Added Up 7/24

Post by Tiit »

I gave up recording costs when it comes to playing with cars. Life is better this way.
Mike W.
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build Updates Dual Chain Sprocket 6/16

Post by Mike W. »

LeiseyJr wrote:Just added motor cost up (on 1st page) and I feel like a

Image


for doing all this for 200whp. I believe that's all the cost though so far. All the parts should be here for when block comes back for assembly and swap.
Screw the numbers. Make the call when you get it running well, then decide if it was too much money. Unless you're racing, butt dyno is the one that really counts. Is it ok, is it a nice smile or is it a big grin? I suppose giggling might be another step, but I suspect that's reserved for forced induction.
athayer187
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build Updates Dual Chain Sprocket 6/16

Post by athayer187 »

Mike W. wrote:
LeiseyJr wrote:Just added motor cost up (on 1st page) and I feel like a

Image


for doing all this for 200whp. I believe that's all the cost though so far. All the parts should be here for when block comes back for assembly and swap.
Screw the numbers. Make the call when you get it running well, then decide if it was too much money. Unless you're racing, butt dyno is the one that really counts. Is it ok, is it a nice smile or is it a big grin? I suppose giggling might be another step, but I suspect that's reserved for forced induction.
Those smiles and giggles are worth their weight in gold, remember that this is a hobby too!
LeiseyJr
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build Updates Cost Added Up 7/24

Post by LeiseyJr »

Dad got the rotating assembly together and we tested the oil pumps we found the best one so that's in as well. He had to stop because needed to order the spacer that goes behind rear crank seal, as mine is quite worn where that seal seats.

ImageUntitled by samleisey, on Flickr
ImageUntitled by samleisey, on Flickr
ImageUntitled by samleisey, on Flickr



We got held up on head assembly, bolts for eccentrics are fitting weird so new ones are on the way. Got Lucas Break-In Oil, still haven't decided on how break in procedure will go.

Major progress ,but nowhere close to being out of the woods yet.


*notes on what I'm reusing from 1972 motor
-Rocker Shafts (plugged on both ends makes more sense)
-Rear Main Cover (feels better like a better casting but a bit heavier)
-Front Cover (mine was knackered)
Last edited by LeiseyJr on Aug 05, 2019 4:11 PM, edited 1 time in total.
LeiseyJr
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build Updates Cost Added Up 7/24

Post by LeiseyJr »

ImageValve cover by samleisey, on Flickr

Also need to modify a valve cover like this, try that first.
LeiseyJr
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build Rotating Assembly Done 8/5

Post by LeiseyJr »

Got head done last night, this ol' girl was running rich. Got the carbon cleaned up as best as we could.


ImageUpdates by samleisey, on Flickr


ImageUpdates by samleisey, on Flickr


Here is one, high comp, cam'd M30 with dual chain ready for auxiliaries.
ImageUpdates by samleisey, on Flickr

Also tested 061 in dads car, no pinging. So I should be fine for tuning side.
LeiseyJr
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build Long Block Done 8/10

Post by LeiseyJr »

ImageSwap by samleisey, on Flickr

As you can see guides, and everything were designed for dual chain. Looks right in there.


ImageSwap by samleisey, on Flickr

I did put special washer on duck gasket.

ImageSwap by samleisey, on Flickr

Tensioner primed up

ImageSwap by samleisey, on Flickr

Pic right before it got dropped in

ImageSwap by samleisey, on Flickr

Got a free Genuine BMW water pump, bearing sounded perfect compared to Autozone one

ImageSwap by samleisey, on Flickr

ImageSwap by samleisey, on Flickr

Pics of it dropped in the car, this was no fun but it's in.



Also discovered that cam went flat up top because I over torqued banjo bolts like a clown. The crush washers were all types of fucked, all remedied this time.
LeiseyJr
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build Installed in the Car 8/1

Post by LeiseyJr »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEk2Oj7b-Fg


First Start! Priming oiling system super easy, and primed fuel pressure. Then hit the key. Will break in the cam once radiator is hooked up. We are cooking with gas now
cek
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build Installed in the Car 8/1

Post by cek »

LeiseyJr wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEk2Oj7b-Fg


First Start! Priming oiling system super easy, and primed fuel pressure. Then hit the key. Will break in the cam once radiator is hooked up. We are cooking with gas now
First starts are such good feels. Congrats!
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