Sam's 10:1 Motor Build 10/13 survived 2nd track event

E28 technical advice asked and given! Troubleshooting, modifications and more.
LeiseyJr
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Sam's 10:1 Motor Build 10/13 survived 2nd track event

Post by LeiseyJr »

This is where I will be documenting my next motor build.

Plans:
Redo my M30B34 already rebuilt once with Schrick 284 (timing chain failure at 45K of abusive miles)
now with:
10:1 pistons (for sure)
B35 Valves (maybe not) *will not be doing
Oiling Mods (might not be anything to improve)
Motronic 1.3 (for sure) *sike
Miller WAR (for sure) *sike


Parts Acquired and Cost w/ appropriate rants:

I went with Goetze, because I believe they are OEM supplier.Pelican seemed to be the only ones who had them. OEM BMW,ring sets are $75 a piece and I can't currently afford that so these will have to do.
Piston Ring Set (91.97 mm, Standard)
Part #: 11-25-1-714-383-M42
$27.50x6

$165.00

Parts Motor: $200
Donating Timing Components, maybe valves, rocker shafts for another head

Dirty Pistons $350

Shrick 284 Cam (couldnt reuse one in the car)
$357

Ireland Rocker Arms:
$300

2mm Thick Headgasket: :$70

Headgasket Set: $100?

2 061 ECU's: $460

Alpina B10 Chip: $125 (adding that up made me realize I could've went WAR for same price)

1 Set of W8DC: $15

1 Set of W7DC: $15

Break-In Oil: $70

BMW OE Rod Bearings: $300

Main Bearings: $100

Block Machine Cost: $400-$500
__________________

Total So Far: $3000ish with other misc stuff I forgot
Last edited by LeiseyJr on Oct 13, 2020 6:24 PM, edited 23 times in total.
Shawn D.
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build

Post by Shawn D. »

Why just B35 valves and not a B35 head with B35 intake and exhaust manifolds? You're not going to reap most of the benefits of the valves without other related components/work.
LeiseyJr
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build

Post by LeiseyJr »

Shawn D. wrote:Why just B35 valves and not a B35 head with B35 intake and exhaust manifolds? You're not going to reap most of the benefits of the valves without other related components/work.
The shape of the combustion chamber, with 10:1 I can't really afford a weird squish. My father has already had enough issues with pinging, so I don't want the added difference if the B35 combustion chamber is different. I already have the valves as well and two b34 heads to play around with. I will be using B35 intake manifold w/ TB probably, if I can find one and doing some home porting as well. I already have headers as well from current motor so those will be moved over.
WVe28
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build

Post by WVe28 »

The combustion chamber shape reduces compression significantly with the b35 head and b34 pistons. You can get right around 10:1 with flush, flat top pistons (on a b34 head). There are compression calculators out there. A stock B34 has about 56cc of volume. With a shave you can knock a couple more off.

Compression aside, b35 intake valves are 47mm (+1) and the intake ports are noticeably wider. There is enough "meat" on a b34 head to port match a b35 intake manifold. I'll take pics of mine when I get it back from the machine shop this or next week. I believe the exhaust valves and port shape is the same between the b34 and b35 (38 mm). +1 is common and would be of benefit with headers, a free flowing exhaust and high compression.

I'd be stoked with 230 at the wheels on mine once it's back together and that's with a 94 mm bore, forged pistons, megasquirt and all the above head work and then some. It's anybody's guess what I'll actually get. Dollar for dollar, if most the work hadn't already been done, no way in hell I'd build NA again over turbo. Lots of $$ for marginal gains comparatively. But less likely that I kill myself with it too :laugh:
Last edited by WVe28 on Mar 27, 2019 7:18 AM, edited 1 time in total.
travisj
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build

Post by travisj »

I am also in the process of a similar build. Euro 10:1 engine, b35 intake valves and manifold, 290 dbilas cam, Miller MAF, super sprint headers and all the way back. Head is still at the shop. Gunning to finish for trip to Vintage. We can compare at Texfest, unless you are headed to Vintage
WVe28
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build

Post by WVe28 »

:up: Vintage is my goal as well. So far I'm on track. Sam you should head up with the TX crew as well. It seems like everyone in TX has "extra" cars laying around. Just bring one of them. Hahaha
LeiseyJr
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build

Post by LeiseyJr »

travisj wrote:I am also in the process of a similar build. Euro 10:1 engine, b35 intake valves and manifold, 290 dbilas cam, Miller MAF, super sprint headers and all the way back. Head is still at the shop. Gunning to finish for trip to Vintage. We can compare at Texfest, unless you are headed to Vintage
Hopefully, it'll be done by Tex-Fest
LeiseyJr
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build

Post by LeiseyJr »

WVe28 wrote::up: Vintage is my goal as well. So far I'm on track. Sam you should head up with the TX crew as well. It seems like everyone in TX has "extra" cars laying around. Just bring one of them. Hahaha
I have't really made plans for this years vintage. I probably wont be going this year, but we'll see as it gets closer.
Tiit
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build

Post by Tiit »

Following. I do want to do this.
Slightly off topic: b35 is 9:1 and bigger combustion chambers. Would b35 pistons work with b34 head and what the compression would be?
tschultz
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build

Post by tschultz »

Tiit wrote:Following. I do want to do this.
Slightly off topic: b35 is 9:1 and bigger combustion chambers. Would b35 pistons work with b34 head and what the compression would be?

CR for B35 with b34 head (but recall B34 head flows less overall)
CR 9.87 :1

CR for Euro b34 with b35 head
CR 9.11 :1

CR for US M30 b34 with b35 head
CR 7.45 :1

Thanks again Brad D.:
http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?t=51939
Last edited by tschultz on Mar 27, 2019 8:24 AM, edited 2 times in total.
BuzzBomb
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build

Post by BuzzBomb »

WVe28 wrote:..You can get right around 10:1 with flush, flat top pistons (on a b34 head). There are compression calculators out there. A stock B34 has about 56cc of volume. With a shave you can knock a couple more off.

Compression aside, b35 intake pistons are 47mm (+1)
Hold on there, Skippy. If a "Piano Top" Euro 10.0:1 piston is rated at, well, 10.0:1, how would you get that same compression with a "flush, flat top piston"? Yuh can't.
A flat top piston will give you 9.3:1 (M90B34)

And please offer source of those 47mm pistons. They sound delicious, served with fava beans.
WVe28
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build

Post by WVe28 »

BuzzBomb wrote:
WVe28 wrote:..You can get right around 10:1 with flush, flat top pistons (on a b34 head). There are compression calculators out there. A stock B34 has about 56cc of volume. With a shave you can knock a couple more off.

Compression aside, b35 intake pistons are 47mm (+1)
Hold on there, Skippy. If a "Piano Top" Euro 10.0:1 piston is rated at, well, 10.0:1, how would you get that same compression with a "flush, flat top piston"? Yuh can't.
A flat top piston will give you 9.3:1 (M90B34)

And please offer source of those 47mm pistons. They sound delicious, served with fava beans.
I meant valve, of course.

Feel free to check my math. I should have 10.05:1 on my engine with flat pistons. Can't speak to stock displacement as I haven't done those calculations. Stock M90 was indeed 9.3 but there are ways to bump it up a bit with flat pistons. For starters, that 9.3 is based off a 84mm stroke. With a m30b34 crank of 86 mm alone you raise compression from 9.3 to 9.5.

Bore: 94mm
Stroke: 86mm
Displacement: 3.581 L
Chamber Volume: 54cc
Deck Clearance: 0
Gasket Thickness 1.72mm
Gasket Bore: 94.5mm
Compression Ratio: 10.05
LeiseyJr
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build

Post by LeiseyJr »

Motor is still not torn apart and in the car but I will be purchasing the abandoned 76 head stamped motor with a 1972 marked valve cover. It came out of a Bavaria its sitting under a tree at Shermans but under the valve-cover is a beautiful gleaming Doppelkette, which will be replacing my broken timing components. They are used but it's barely worn especially top sprocket, probably still get new chain. I also really don't want to send the head off again (another $500), so it might donate B34 valves. It also has the early high tension rockerr springs.
ImageEarly M30 by samleisey, on Flickr
ImageEarly M30 by samleisey, on Flickr
ImageEarly M30 by samleisey, on Flickr


I am also quite fascinated to take it apart and see what has changed compared to B34. Also snapped some pics of the M30B25 in shermans euro E12 still in the car.

ImageEarly M30 by samleisey, on Flickr
ImageEarly M30 by samleisey, on Flickr
ImageEarly M30 by samleisey, on Flickr
Mike W.
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build

Post by Mike W. »

LeiseyJr wrote:Motor is still not torn apart and in the car but I will be purchasing the abandoned 76 head stamped motor with a 1972 marked valve cover. It came out of a Bavaria its sitting under a tree at Shermans but under the valve-cover is a beautiful gleaming Doppelkette, which will be replacing my broken timing components. They are used but it's barely worn especially top sprocket, probably still get new chain. I also really don't want to send the head off again (another $500), so it might donate B34 valves. It also has the early high tension rockerr springs.
The parts, valves, rockers, etc yes, but I hope you aren't even considering using the early head with their propensity for cracking.
WVe28
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build

Post by WVe28 »

Nice find on the double row chain parts :up:
LeiseyJr
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build

Post by LeiseyJr »

Mike W. wrote: The parts, valves, rockers, etc yes, but I hope you aren't even considering using the early head with their propensity for cracking.
Yes of course Im using my old head. Just dont want to send current head off to get new valve seats for B35 valves. Its only a parts motor. Block will sadly be scrapped, and head might kept around in case anyone needs it but will not be used on an engine.
LeiseyJr
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build

Post by LeiseyJr »

WVe28 wrote:Nice find on the double row chain parts :up:
Yeah I was giving up on double chain due to NLA top sprocket, but I remembered this motor. Got lucky!
LeiseyJr
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build

Post by LeiseyJr »

All the parts are here for the most part. Has been placed on back burner because dad is getting paint. Also theres a large alarming scratch in the 4th cylinder. Looks like metal has been going through the motor due to the sprocket dying. So this might be where this thread falls apart, we’ll see.

Parts motor has donated beautiful rocker shafts and the timing cover. Glad I have saved those.
LeiseyJr
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build

Post by LeiseyJr »

Here is the el scratcho

ImageUntitled by samleisey, on Flickr

Block will be going to machine shop to be checked for cracks and to be flushed. We are pretty sure the sprockets being eaten alive from chain tension was causing steel flakes to float around the engine. This shown on the cam, looks like it was getting metal everywhere. So new Schrick 284 cam has been ordered, ECS has it for limited sale of $357. Going to get all new rocker arms as well, HD again because they didn't break with valve hitting piston. Pretty strong, not sure why'd you would need steel ones.

I started work on the head, first step was getting cam out and dying a little inside seeing I needed a new one. If ECS didn't have that sale I would be significantly more upset. This was so I could do the water check see if any valves weren't obviously bent.

ImageM30 Rebuild by samleisey, on Flickr

ImageM30 Rebuild by samleisey, on Flickr

Number 3 was being the big gay and leaking

ImageM30 Rebuild by samleisey, on Flickr

ImageM30 Rebuild by samleisey, on Flickr

This is how it's supposed to look, pretty crazy a lil air and fuel in air that compressed can make cool noises and move steel.

ImageM30 Rebuild by samleisey, on Flickr

I then marked all the ones I was not touching, because they were still good. No point in touching them if theres nothing wrong with them.
Image48032158918_c96844bd6d_o by samleisey, on Flickr

I concluded I needed 4 valves. 3 exhaust and 1 intake. I wanted to start with cylinder 5 because I still wasn't 100% sure intake valve wasn't leaking. Due to the fact I could not water test due to a small issue with exhaust valve.
ImageM30 Rebuild by samleisey, on Flickr

What a debacle finding an exhaust valve, Dad was a huge help finding one. Damn do those valves take a beating compared to intake. A lot were bent or had some like pitting at the top, similar to what was on the cam. Some were also somehow a little bent. We barely found the 3 we needed.
ImageM30 Rebuild by samleisey, on Flickr

We found some with minimal pitting, and straight. My father described it as "removing the terrible from the questionable" .

ImageUntitled by samleisey, on Flickr

I then did one of my favorite activities wire wheeling valves and lapping them. I don't like to do stuff perfectly, but this one thing I do.
ImageM30 Rebuild by samleisey, on Flickr

ImageM30 Rebuild by samleisey, on Flickr

At this point I was stuck, because my head gasket set didn't come with valve seals.


I just want to say rebuilding an engine is not a light project for anyone who wants to do it. The cost of it versus a good used engine is exponentially higher, and no matter how much time I put into this engine. No one will have done a better job then BMW assembling them.
Nebraska_e28
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build

Post by Nebraska_e28 »

Saving some coin eh?
How much time spent lapping each valve? Forearms the size of Popeye now?
nik77356
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build

Post by nik77356 »

Yeah, you're nuts, buddy! Next time you need some stock size B34 Valves, let me know, I have way too many.

Glad to see you are making progress!
LeiseyJr
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build

Post by LeiseyJr »

Nebraska_e28 wrote:Saving some coin eh?
How much time spent lapping each valve? Forearms the size of Popeye now?
Hand drill and fuel hose with some lapping compound.
LeiseyJr
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build

Post by LeiseyJr »

nik77356 wrote:Yeah, you're nuts, buddy! Next time you need some stock size B34 Valves, let me know, I have way too many.

Glad to see you are making progress!
I will! Hopefully wont need any soon though.
LeiseyJr
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build

Post by LeiseyJr »

This engine when first assembled got new oil pump gears, it appears that during that uhh improvement. A bolt is not where it should be, how long its been ike this or if we forgot it is unknown as there isn't a bolt in oil pan. This time though we actually took the time to see how the hell the oil pump works, you learn the most from mistakes.... :lol:

ImageOil Pump by samleisey, on Flickr

This Check valve is also leaking, so I don't know if that is ideal or not.
ImageOil Pump by samleisey, on Flickr

The brand new gears are scarred, from metal being in there. Which is a shame, just going to get a used pump and throw it in. I would hate to remove the BMW magic.

The more I dig into this motor the more mistakes we keep uncovering, it did last like 3 years of abuse though.
LeiseyJr
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Re: Sam's 10:1 Motor Build Updates 6/9 lol 69

Post by LeiseyJr »

Tuning is also a fairly large issue, that I am trying to deal with. On the matters of 1.3 swapping is still being decided, this is my daily but I have never found M 1.0 to be insufficient even with poor tune. There is also the issue of it being modified engine, if it were a stock B35. Then it would deserve the 179 because that is the factory ecu designed to go with it and would be perfect. I could throw a Conforti on there or Mark D and be a happy camper.

However I hate myself, so it will be 10:1, with a Schrick 284. This cam is not quite aggressive, you can still maintain a smooth idle and get top end. Previously with 8:1 and this cam; I have tried 4 chips, stock, Conforti, Korman and SSquid.

The stock chip ran the car but it was not ideal.

Turner- ran the car fine, gave it some torque down low just like on stock B34 but up top lacked
SSsquid's custom chip- gave me the same issue as Turner up top was

Korman- this was the one that was in my for most of the 3 years. It screamed up top, but in the low end it lacked. Luckily the M30 is a torque machine so it wasn't a big deal. Idle was never crisp, and it just didn't feel optimized and always very rich. Never fouled plugs or made them look weird, because I would clear it out often. It was carboning up though on the pistons. Now looking at their site it and some assumptions. I find it highly unlikely that they burned me a "custom chip". It was most likely a chip for their stage 2 cars, which are designed for higher compression and a cam. I am also assuming this because how much less torque that chip had down low, compared to my Conforti now on 250k 8:1. I think it doesn't have a lot of timing there, so I am thinking I can get away with current Korman chip. This is what I am praying will work flawlessly, but we know how that goes.

Miller WAR presents its own issues, firstly I would have to commit to either M1.0 or M1.3. To go Miller on 1.0 you need a 28 pin ecu. Between my father and I we have 2 28 pins. The one running his current Miller setup and a spare I have found. Bimmerguy2002 is selling one for $275 right now plus shipping. It's over priced but understandable as they are pretty rare. So to go Miller I would have to find another used ECU and it limits spare parts options because they arent growing on trees.

So if I were go Miller I would have to go 1.3, which I have the parts for. However its all used, I've never seen it work. I do know that my 1.0 system although a little archaic is all replaced and the car runs well. It's tried and tested. So to really be confident I would need some spares at the minimum. I like how M1.3 is simpler and smoother that is all very nice. I have loved how m5x cars and newer bmws run amazing under all extreme conditions. However again it will be a modded motor, and they have that adaptive non reset memory thing. This is what I love about 1.0 I can disconnect battery and it will relearn. 1.3 can't really be reset. So that will be a debacle when tuning or trying to swap in spare ecu.

Also the cost of Miller is quite large, it's not motec. It's still pricey, plus dyno time cost. I will not be using the MAF so I can save some cost there, but still probably another $1K into my junker. My dad got his tuned and it idles in like 20 miles of traffic everyday. It still has a jerky stumble under light throttle inputs and cold start idle when warming up. Overall it works well but its tuneable so I'll always want to touch the damn thing. Trying to refine it and get perfect tune. This is why I got Bilstein sports on my coilovers so its in and done, no fiddling just have to drive better.


Chipping 1.3 is an option but no one really makes a good chip AFAIK just like with 1.0 and if I'm gonna go 1.3 the whole point is refinement.

Ideally I could get 061 and a chip with cam.

The reality is if the Korman chip pings I'm screwed and have to jump down 1.3 rabbit hole. SSSquid could never make a good chip that didn't ping and AFRs were everywhere. So its either try another Korman chip or go all in 1.3 and Miller. Which is an expensive rabbit hole, and I'm DDing it. So it's an added fear I'll have with not known fuel injection parts.

So I guess after typing this and seeing it all in one space, I'll just have to anxiously wait to see how Korman chip does and go from there.
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