M30b30 tuning

E28 technical advice asked and given! Troubleshooting, modifications and more.
e12euro
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Re: M30b30 tuning

Post by e12euro »

Mike W. wrote: May 09, 2021 4:17 PM Granted Realoem is not perfect. Pretty good, but not perfect. But look at Schmiedmann too. They show it as a M30 with M30 parts including a timing chain. I suspect the picture is something BMW supplied to the press and is in fact an M20 in a 525i. It was a short run before it was replaced with the 3.0 V8, but everything I see, have heard of and seen says it's a M30. As you know they weren't available here so I haven't seen one in the flesh, but all the parts say M30.
The article said all photos by the author Martin Vincent Autocar magazine (UK) November 2 1988. If you look at the above photos, the pics of the 525i and the 530i look a little different in terms of cam cover ribbing. But compare both to the 535i engine pictured, the smaller engines are both further from the radiator, the 535i six looks physically bigger, as you would expect.

According to the European reports the 192 hp 24 valve 525i was seen as the six cylinder 530i's replacement. When the new M60 V8s came out later they were seen as jointly replacing the M30B35 powered 535i.

I would like to see a picture of the poster's engine compartment if possible. It may or may not match the photo in Autocar's 1988 article.
SlickDizzy
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Re: M30b30 tuning

Post by SlickDizzy »

I am not sure how this argument has gone this far given there are more than a few photos and videos online of the late-style M30B30 that definitively prove its existence. I feel bad for OP, I am sure he is very frustrated with this board right now.

https://youtu.be/rAJ0oiCxSJ4

https://youtu.be/xnhh3Pqr_m0

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e12euro
Posts: 196
Joined: Jan 11, 2007 5:28 AM
Location: EA

Re: M30b30 tuning

Post by e12euro »

SlickDizzy wrote: May 12, 2021 7:10 PM I am not sure how this argument has gone this far given there are more than a few photos and videos online of the late-style M30B30 that definitively prove its existence. I feel bad for OP, I am sure he is very frustrated with this board right now.

https://youtu.be/rAJ0oiCxSJ4

https://youtu.be/xnhh3Pqr_m0

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Thanks for finding the photos. UK's Autocar must have used the wrong picture, odd given they are such a respected journal.

Apologies to the OP, but he could have just said that wasn't his engine shown in the article, or answer whether it had a cambelt or a chain.
Nothintoseeere
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Joined: Apr 23, 2021 5:27 PM
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Re: M30b30 tuning

Post by Nothintoseeere »

Some progress. Engine out. Exhaust "stud" out some helicoiled. Some had used bolt before. Proper studs now in.

New stainless manifolds fitted. There is a full stainless steel exhaust system to go with this. On tuesday its off to bmw to get a wiring issue looked at.

Then rollers which happens to be across the the road from this garage to see what it producing and omex time. Given Suffolk is the centre of the universe it so happens all the expertise is on my doorstep.

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virtual keyboard online
Mike W.
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Re: M30b30 tuning

Post by Mike W. »

SlickDizzy wrote: May 12, 2021 7:10 PM I am not sure how this argument has gone this far given there are more than a few photos and videos online of the late-style M30B30 that definitively prove its existence. I feel bad for OP, I am sure he is very frustrated with this board right now.
Thank you for clearing that up. I don't know why I didn't think to search for it, but I didn't. I was sure, but so was he.
Nothintoseeere
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Re: M30b30 tuning

Post by Nothintoseeere »

Mission creep.



Today i bought a m30b35 bottom end. So radco engineering can start work on this block. New bearings and balancing everything. Perhaps the block will need boring to 92.5mm or just honing. New JE forged pistons will be ordered for a CR of 10.5:1.



When the block is ready the engine can come out and the cylinder head will be off for port matching to the b35 inlet manifold (bought with the block) and some minor modifications to the valves stems as well as new 47mm inlet valves.

The camshaft will be an alpina copy (FRITZ) and the ecu will be kept and an alpina b10 chip used (fritz).

So it should perform when done like an alpina b10.

I might get a megasquirt ecu from the states which plugs into the motronic wiring loom so all it need is an IAT and mapping.

So 254hp is what alpina got out of the b10. Time will tell what this one will do.

Now the bits are bought it definitely going to happen.
Tiit
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Re: M30b30 tuning

Post by Tiit »

Smart move. Would’ve been difficult and expensive making 254hp with 3L motor.
If going with custom pistons, why not increase CR even more? I don’t know for sure, but 11,5 CR with right tune should still run fine with 98 octane. Otherwise I’d go with b35 pistons.
Tiit
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Re: M30b30 tuning

Post by Tiit »

Smart move. Would’ve been difficult and expensive making 254hp with 3L motor.
If going with custom pistons, why not increase CR even more? I don’t know for sure, but 11,5 CR with right tune should still run fine with 98 octane. Otherwise I’d go with b35 pistons.
Mike W.
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Re: M30b30 tuning

Post by Mike W. »

I like it. I think you will too. You're wallet maybe not so much, but you seem ready for that part. :up:
Nothintoseeere
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Re: M30b30 tuning

Post by Nothintoseeere »

B35 pistons would be a waste of time with a longer duration, higher lift cam. B35 pistons provide a low compression ratio and with the increased overlap of the cam the dynamic compression drops. The alpina copy cam will do it thing properly with higher CR.

The CR you use does depend on the combustion chamber shape, e.t.c i have to take advise on this and the advise is 10.5:1. Its what alpina did.

Essentially modifications work best when its complimentary. Longer duration cams exist but affect idle and make the car harder to tune.

Higher CR would be fine on a race engine with a longer duration cam built to ring its neck in racing.

If you want a peaky engine buy a honda s2000 and ring it neck at 8000rpm. If you want a wave of torque then its the engine spec i am going for.

Back in the day the alpina b10 would have cost as much as a house. Now i can build one for £5k and a house is £230k.
Tiit
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Re: M30b30 tuning

Post by Tiit »

Nothintoseeere wrote: Jun 03, 2021 3:04 AM B35 pistons would be a waste of time with a longer duration, higher lift cam. B35 pistons provide a low compression ratio and with the increased overlap of the cam the dynamic compression drops. The alpina copy cam will do it thing properly with higher CR.

The CR you use does depend on the combustion chamber shape, e.t.c i have to take advise on this and the advise is 10.5:1. Its what alpina did.

Essentially modifications work best when its complimentary. Longer duration cams exist but affect idle and make the car harder to tune.

Higher CR would be fine on a race engine with a longer duration cam built to ring its neck in racing.
This theory is widely believed and promoted by old school engine builders. And it does sound good and makes sense. But I have not seen this theory being proven in engine dyno. Long duration cam does NOT need high CR to work. And high CR does NOT need big cam. Cam doesn't care how much CR motor has. Cam size and compression ratio doing their thing independently. Increasing CR adds torque over entire curve.
Alpina may have had many reasons thy chose 10.5 CR. Fuel quality, emissions, longevity etc. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with 10.5 CR, I'm just saying if ordering custom pistons, higher CR pistons would give more power for no extra cost.
Just look at modern engines (yes its not apples to apples comparison). Typical modern engine has very mild cam, but good flowing head and 11+ CR
Nothintoseeere
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Re: M30b30 tuning

Post by Nothintoseeere »

well modern engine are different. Static cr is not important. Dymanic cr is. The cam affect this. Valve area affects this. Therefore a modern engines with dual cams and variable valve timing can run higher static CR and make more power without using wild cams. Modern engines can get the valves open and closed to maximise gas flow without using mega lift cams. Modern engines mix the fuel and air better as the charge enters the cylinders so a higher static cr can be utilised. Modern engines have knock sensors....

An old 2v engine is a different beast. There are no knock sensor although these can be added but you are limited by the combustion chamber shape and how the charge enters the cylinders. More cr and i have considered it in an m30 sadly means tuning to avoid knock. I have talked to a few builders and all are saying the same thing. The one thing i dont want is to order pistons and find i am building a problem. So i am sticking to the tried and tested. Its also got to pass the idle emissions test here. That mostly HC,and nox and it not a hard test to pass but given the lack of a cat in this car more CR makes passing that test harder. As it is the current engine is not far of failing that test. So i have to cautious.

In any case. I am replicating what alpina did. They got the most you can get from an m30 and still it be a useable engine on the road for everyday driving in all conditions. That good enough for me. I am not pretending I know better than alpina or the folk who build engines for a living. I dont.

If i was building a race car then i would use a higher cr a wilder cam and go for max power. The car however is a road car. It has to be civil.
RobertRO
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Re: M30b30 tuning

Post by RobertRO »

Nothintoseeere wrote: Jun 02, 2021 1:53 PM [...] New JE forged pistons will be ordered for a CR of 10.5:1.
When the block is ready the engine can come out and the cylinder head will be off for port matching to the b35 inlet manifold (bought with the block) and some minor modifications to the valves stems as well as new 47mm inlet valves.
The camshaft will be an alpina copy (FRITZ) and the ecu will be kept and an alpina b10 chip used (fritz).
[...]
So 254hp is what alpina got out of the b10. Time will tell what this one will do.
I assume that you prepared this project very well. However, I would just like to point out some facts, maybe they will be of some use.
The Alpina B10 254HP engine, that you intend to (more or less) replicate, is based on the M30B35, but with some interesting modifications:
- the B35 cylinder head combustion chamber was reshaped;
- the pistons were custom, matching the combustion chamber;
- the S38 144mm con rods were used, instead of M30 135mm rods;
- Alpina cam and ECU tune.

I understand that you intend to mod a M30B30 head, whose intake channels are quite different to start with. I assume that the combustion chamber shape will not be changed - otherwise the JE pistons must take that into account.
I believe it would be useful to carefully compare the B30 and the B35 combustion chambers, to make sure that they are (almost) identical. Since E34 M30B30 was not sold in the US, most likely JE designs the pistons based on B35 cylinder head specs. If the combustion chamber of B30 is different, unwanted surprises may pop up.

Also, despite using the same camshaft and ECU tune as Alpina, at least on certain map areas the tune may be a bit off, due to the other specifics of Alpina engine that you will not replicate in your build.

This thread is interesting, and I would appreciate your keeping us updated.
Nothintoseeere
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Re: M30b30 tuning

Post by Nothintoseeere »

Well a b30 head can be ground to the b35 inlet shape. Unless i can find a b35 head. Rocking horse poo now. Any one got one.

B35 and b30 combustion chambers are the same. Same volume. Same shape too. The b35 gets a bigger squish zone (as the cylinder is wider) which larger cylinders need anyway.

Its not clear alpina did anything to the combustion chamber. People say they have and yet the one person over here who has worked on a few say they did not.


The other thing that can be done is shortening the valve guides so they dont protrude into the inlet port.

The alpina chip is just the bugger running. If it a standalone ecu afterwards i am prepared for that. If i get close to 250hp i will be chuffed.

144mm conrods are definitely to reduce cylinder wall sideloads at high RPM. That add too much expensive for me.
Poor mans b10 is what this is. I drive maybe 3000 miles a year so if there a bit more bore wear big deal. It will take 30 years for it show.
Last edited by Nothintoseeere on Jun 04, 2021 2:22 PM, edited 1 time in total.
Nothintoseeere
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Re: M30b30 tuning

Post by Nothintoseeere »

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LeiseyJr
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Re: M30b30 tuning

Post by LeiseyJr »

The B10 chip without a lot of AFM fuckery is not that good for any type of daily driver driveability. I went with that chip initially for my build.

Car runs way better on a stock 061 DME than with Fritz Alpina copy chip in the same DME. I then went Miller WAR and used my fathers dyno tuned map and made my own. It has taken me months, good experience. I now have burned my own chip. That Fritz chip makes my car slower, and ping its brains out. I believe it has too much advance, whether that is because I have a Schrick Cam or something else I don't know.

Do not expect a perfect tune with that Alpina Chip. If you are in the UK and Fritz and can fuck with the AFM, that would be the way to go. I do not believe the numbers he states.

If you can get megasquirt and just want to pay someone to tune it, that is the way to go.

But do not expect to buy a chip from anyone and expect it to suit your needs, no one sells it or at least I haven't found anyone yet. Dynos can be fucked with to give you numbers you want to see, really don't aim for numbers. Aim for real world improvements in how the car drives.
Nothintoseeere
Posts: 36
Joined: Apr 23, 2021 5:27 PM
Location: U.k

Re: M30b30 tuning

Post by Nothintoseeere »

I did say the chip is to get the car running and we will go from there.

This engine builder also has an engine dyno. All on my doorstep in rural suffolk. Petrol heads round this way. Work starts wednesday when the bottom end arrives.

I still need a cylinder head.
Last edited by Nothintoseeere on Jun 15, 2021 7:21 PM, edited 1 time in total.
Nothintoseeere
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Re: M30b30 tuning

Post by Nothintoseeere »

All that needs to be done is make a spring tension adjustment to get the ecu to know how much air is flowing.

Since the engine builder has a rolling road and a o2/emmissions sensor this adjustment can done be live across the rpm range. I.e spring tension adjusted till the emmisions, afr and power look good at all RPM. Thats what fritz would do. Pretty simple really. This was done on my 525e when it was turned over to a 527i with motronic 1.3.
LeiseyJr
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Re: M30b30 tuning

Post by LeiseyJr »

Nothintoseeere wrote: Jun 15, 2021 6:29 PM All that needs to be done is make a spring tension adjustment to get the ecu to know how much air is flowing.

Since the engine builder has a rolling road and a o2/emmissions sensor this adjustment can done be live across the rpm range. I.e spring tension adjusted till the emmisions, afr and power look good at all RPM. Thats what fritz would do. Pretty simple really. This was done on my 525e when it was turned over to a 527i with motronic 1.3.
Nothintoseeere
Posts: 36
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Re: M30b30 tuning

Post by Nothintoseeere »

About to buy a bunch of parts.

Rockers from bmw in the uk are £36.99 plus vat.

Any reason why ireland eng rockers which are cheaper should not be used.

Vac motorsports also have oe equivelent rockers for a cheaper price.

Rev limit is 7000 rpm.

Any good source for exhaust manifold gaskets? NlA from bmw and motor factors over here.

Valve stem oil seals and valve guides are nla as well. Are the item vac motorsport sell as good.

Ireland engineering offer 47/39mm valves as used by aplina. Again any good.

Its at that stage now about to buy £3k worth of parts so the engine can be built. My intention is a completely fresh engine with only the castings, crankshaft and con rods being reused. Everything else will be new so i want it to be right.
Nothintoseeere
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Re: M30b30 tuning

Post by Nothintoseeere »

Went with mostly IE parts. They are quoting 8 to 10 weeks for.pistons where as vac motorsport is more like 15 weeks.

I would.not be surprised with the way thing are in the world if that time scale slips.
Nothintoseeere
Posts: 36
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Re: M30b30 tuning

Post by Nothintoseeere »

Ireland engineering what a company. I was intending to pay for pistons and other engine parts totalling 3000 usd.

They returned my paypal payment (i lost £100 in exchange rates) because they don't accept paypal from first time customers (then why offer it) then the bank transfer failed because there bank details which were entered correctly are not not accepted and they insist they are correct.

So i will buy elsewhere now. Not a company i will ever approach again.
Nothintoseeere
Posts: 36
Joined: Apr 23, 2021 5:27 PM
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Re: M30b30 tuning

Post by Nothintoseeere »

Bought pistons of vac motorsport and a few other bits of them. Schiedmann in demark and BMW are supplying the rest.
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