Should this be my 1st "classic"?

General conversations about BMW E28s and the people who own them.
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hobbes
Posts: 16
Joined: Aug 15, 2022 11:09 AM
Location: Ventura

Should this be my 1st "classic"?

Post by hobbes »

Hello friends,

New member here and looking to buy my first "classic" car. I live in SoCal and would want to find a car that passes Smog easily. I'm great at fixing things, but have little (ish) experience working on cars. My time is limited these days and it maybe easier for me to pass off anything too time consuming to a mechanic. I'm debating between an E28 or E30 for reliability, but favor the E28 much more and I'd love your opinions.

From your experience and my budget options, i'm curious how you may advise (I realize its all subjective):

My wife and I currently have two modern Subaru's and I see two options for us: A) Buy an E28 as a 3rd car with a $15k budget, driving it 2,000 miles a year or B) Sell one of our Subarus, but have a $25k budget to buy a E28 as a 2nd car driving it 5,000 miles a year. Must be Automatic if its our 2nd car, but can be manual if its a 3rd car. With both options, I was thinking we'd set aside about $5k for maintenance in the first couple years. My wifes cool as hell and loves the idea of either. We don't need both cars every day, but we would hate to have a car in the shop for a few weeks on the regular.

Bonus question: Is the e28 any more reliable than the e30? Because option C is to buy an E30 with the same budget options.

Curious your thoughts!
vinceg101
Posts: 4802
Joined: Jun 20, 2007 2:40 AM
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Should this be my 1st "classic"?

Post by vinceg101 »

Welcome!
Yes, you are correct in that most all of what you asking is subjective but there are some items that have direct answers.
SMOG:
Well, that is getting harder and harder for this generation of BMW's to pass; I would classify getting a 30+ year old car to pass strict CA SMOG measures in the "difficult" category and not a sure thing. In theory if the car is baslined and in its' original working order and configuration (US cars and with CA compliant emissions equipment), it should pass. Many folks here get these to pass but it often becomes a bit of drama. One big developing issue is the lack of shops that can test these cars; these are OBD I generation technology and require a roller machine and tail pipe sensors. Fewer and fewer of STAR and Test Only shops have them or if they do, they aren't working because so few cars these days require them. CA compliant CAT systems are harder to find and expensive also. OEM BMW CAT's are still the best but are super expensive.

I think you need to ask yourself (and maybe tell us) what your goals are for either model: fun weekend driving, restoration & show weekend use, or serious performance road driving. It matters which platform and what car you start with and how much investment you're willing to commit to.

Option A:
Reasonable and healthy enough budget for a decent E28, but the market prices for E28's are at an all-time high. As a result the options at that price range are getting rougher and represent cars that need more work to sort through. I think in this respect there might be more options in E30's but finding a sorted, more original and intact E30 is harder since these have been the choice platform for modding for decades now. For a 3rd car option, I think this is ideal for this generation of BMW only because I'm pragmatic and always want a working reliable car on-hand. This also allows for me to make the 3rd a project car and gives you some breathing room for long term wrenching and/or restoration work; there was nothing worse than having to curtail my weekend projects only because I needed the car to be running come Monday morning. This would allow you to look at cars needing more work as it won't need to be on the road every day.

Option B:
There are many folks here that daily drive E28's and prefer them for their simplicity, handling, and reliability (once sorted mechanically). Fuel economy is situational but average for 30+ year old cars (this generation of BMW's were never stellar on MPG unless you're looking at M20 eta or even the 524 turbo diesel variants which deliver some impressive MPG that rival most newer cars). Automatics by on average have shorter lifespans than their manual counterparts and in this case if you get an earlier non-electronic version (pre-9/86) you're better off. The later G260 manuals are less expensive all-around than their earlier G265 predecessors, but all manual transmissions of this age are expensive to maintain (lack and cost of parts as well as finding a shop to work on them). You definitely have more options with a $25K budget and can find some pretty well sorted examples; ones that I wouldn't hesitate to daily drive and ditch one of the Sooby's for (as long as you keep one really reliable car in the driveway). However, at this price range and what is currently out there (check BAT) there are more manual transmissions than automatics simply because they have a longer lifespan than the automatics in general and also because they are more sought after.

Maintenance Budget:
Okay there is an official/un-official rule that ALL BMW's of this generation (all Series) have a $2500 buy in commitment which seems to be more like $3500-4000 these days. This is to get the car to baseline (brakes, cooling system, timing belt (M20's), tune-up, suspension, tires, etc.) and not necessarily addressing larger issues (neglect, repairs, etc.). I think your $5k is reasonable but you might not get the mileage out of it as you are hoping to. And this is totally dependent on the car you get and the condition you are willing to pay for. One of the great things about this generation of BMW is they were really over designed and built incredibly well; as a result they have fantastic long lives, it is not uncommon to see these drive trains go 500K miles with regular maintenance. I defy you find a post 2000 car of any make that will do that on a regular basis like an E28 or E30 from 1988. All that said, what will curtail your efforts are parts availability and prices; finding new and even used parts for these cars is extremely hard now and getting worse. These are no longer the go-to platforms for entry level owners (as was/is the E30) with plentiful parts at reasonable costs. It's much worse for someone wanting to restore one of these. I think you need to adjust your budget, but it will be on a type of bell curve in that your highest costs will be in the first year or two then level off.

Bonus Question: Reliability
I don't think there is any real difference in reliability between an E30 and E28 (or E23 or E24 for that matter) since they are all of the same generation and share systems and drivelines. The real factor is in which variety: Economy M20's, M30's or the M models. But again this is all dependent on the actual car you end up with. There is one exception and that is due to the overlap in the Series model runs. E28's are older than E30's with them starting just before and ending earlier. As a result some of the later and last years of the E30 start to share technology that showed up in the next generations of the 5's and 7's (E34 & E32). Not a lot but some and that might (big might) start to impact reliability issues. One item to consider is that each of BMW's Series was designed and built on a tiered scale with the 3 Series (E21/E30/E36) being the least expensive on up to the 7 Series (E23 & E32) being the flagships, the M cars stand at the top of course. As a result there are some body part and other systems that are more complex in upper tiers which after 30 years become headaches (E23 HVAC systems stand out as example). However there are not that many between E30's and E28's; both are pretty bullet-proof platforms. Having a good knowledgeable and affordable mechanic on hand (is this an oxymoron?) is key if you don't have the skills yet to tackle most projects. You will find though that in order not to be eaten alive by repair bills, you will need to learn some wrenching skills. Luckily you are in right place as this knowledge base is unparalleled anywhere in the world and the overall SoCal community is strong so help is usually nearby (depending of course). If you come across examples you're considering let us know and if it works out, we can give some critical feedback or even help with initial inspections.

Okay I meant to make that shorter but I lack an editing gene it seems. You mention you're in Ventura, whereabouts: the city or outlining areas/county?
Last edited by vinceg101 on Aug 15, 2022 7:39 PM, edited 1 time in total.
1st 5er
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Re: Should this be my 1st "classic"?

Post by 1st 5er »

How big is the family?
E28s can carry 2 adults and 3 children comfortably, not E30s.
E28s can carry 4 adults comfortably, not E30s.

My first BMW was a '91 325is, which I absolutely loved for a couple of years, and then stumbled upon an E28 '85 528e which ended up stealing my heart even until this day.

If your budget were just a tad higher, and the manual tranny were an option, this...
https://m.facebook.com/groups/bmwe28/pe ... 986733958/
gwb72tii
Posts: 619
Joined: Sep 21, 2021 4:58 PM
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Re: Should this be my 1st "classic"?

Post by gwb72tii »

It’s a matter of style, which body style you like best.

E30’s are a blast to drive, probably the single best model of the 3 series BMW has ever built. And the single best E30 model, other than the M3, is the 318is. They are getting harder to find as they are increasingly in demand and are going up on price. The motor is fantastic, you can drive it to redline all day, the car is lighter and more nimble the than a 325i, and you’ll be able to sell it for a profit when it’s time to move on to a new car.

I’ve owned 2 of the 318is’ and 5 different E30’s and hands down they are better cars to drive.

IMHO
FWIW
Mike W.
Posts: 26872
Joined: Feb 12, 2006 12:00 PM
Location: California Whine Country

Re: Should this be my 1st "classic"?

Post by Mike W. »

vinceg101 wrote: Aug 15, 2022 2:04 PM Welcome!
Yes, you are correct in that most all of what you asking is subjective but there are some items that have direct answers.
SMOG:
Well, that is getting harder and harder for this generation of BMW's to pass; I would classify getting a 30+ year old car to pass strict CA SMOG measures in the "difficult" category and not a sure thing. In theory if the car is baslined and in its' original working order and configuration (US cars and with CA compliant emissions equipment), it should pass. Many folks here get these to pass but it often becomes a bit of drama. One big developing issue is the lack of shops that can test these cars; these are OBD I generation technology and require a roller machine and tail pipe sensors. Fewer and fewer of STAR and Test Only shops have them or if they do, they aren't working because so few cars these days require them. CA compliant CAT systems are harder to find and expensive also. OEM BMW CAT's are still the best but are super expensive.
Vince nailed it on smog. And just because it passes one year, doesn't mean it will pass the next time, even if nothing has changed. HC and CO generally aren't difficult, but one of the best things about E28s when they were new is a liability now. They had virtually no smog equipment, meaning Nox, without an EGR system is difficult. On the other hand, mine always passed even at 330K when I sold it. Original cat and while I kept it up, I didn't throw parts at it either.

So far as which to buy, which do you want? And Why? Prices are escalating on both, but especially E30s.
gwb72tii
Posts: 619
Joined: Sep 21, 2021 4:58 PM
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest

Re: Should this be my 1st "classic"?

Post by gwb72tii »

gwb72tii wrote: Aug 15, 2022 4:47 PM It’s a matter of style, which body style you like best.

E30’s are a blast to drive, probably the single best model of the 3 series BMW has ever built. And the single best E30 model, other than the M3, is the 318is. They are getting harder to find as they are increasingly in demand and are going up on price. The motor is fantastic, you can drive it to redline all day, the car is lighter and more nimble the than a 325i, and you’ll be able to sell it for a profit when it’s time to move on to a new car.

I’ve owned 2 of the 318is’ and 5 different E30’s and hands down they are better cars to drive.

IMHO
FWIW
FYI and now I’m back to an e28 after owning a 528e back in the late 80’s and early 90’s. Can’t wait for all of the various parts I need to get it on the road
Panici
Posts: 217
Joined: Aug 07, 2014 2:04 AM
Location: Canada

Re: Should this be my 1st "classic"?

Post by Panici »

I don't see why you can't daily drive either an E28 or E30.
I summer daily drove my E30 for 4-5 years, never left me stranded. I plan to daily drive my E28 when it is ready.
After you go through everything mechanically you'll have a reliable ride that always brings a smile to your face.

My vote goes for a manual trans. The first serious modification I did to my E30 was taking out the 3-speed auto in favour of a 5-speed manual. Old automatics are dogs and ruin the driving experience IMO.

You will find more aftermarket support for the E30. There are even still many parts available from BMW themselves.

As said be prepared to turn a wrench yourself if you want to save some money. These cars are simple and there are plenty of enthusiasts out there willing to share knowledge.

One thing I didn't see mentioned is safety. Crash ratings have come A LONG way in 35+ years.
Know that driving a classic without airbags or crumple zones is a compromise in safety.
It's a little out-of-the-box, but I highly recommend taking a motorcycle safety course to learn true defensive driving. When your life is on the line, you get pretty good at identifying hazards.
Between motorcycle experience and closed-course HPDE days (to build muscle memory and car control), I have avoided multiple instances that would have written off my older vehicles.

Only you can decide what level of risk is acceptable.
I personally have daily driven a tiny 1990 Miata for the past two years. It's definitely less safe then an E28!


Whatever you decide, keep us in the loop!
e12euro
Posts: 220
Joined: Jan 11, 2007 4:28 AM
Location: EA

Re: Should this be my 1st "classic"?

Post by e12euro »

Mike W. wrote: Aug 15, 2022 5:02 PM
vinceg101 wrote: Aug 15, 2022 2:04 PM Welcome!
Yes, you are correct in that most all of what you asking is subjective but there are some items that have direct answers.
SMOG:
Well, that is getting harder and harder for this generation of BMW's to pass; I would classify getting a 30+ year old car to pass strict CA SMOG measures in the "difficult" category and not a sure thing. In theory if the car is baslined and in its' original working order and configuration (US cars and with CA compliant emissions equipment), it should pass. Many folks here get these to pass but it often becomes a bit of drama. One big developing issue is the lack of shops that can test these cars; these are OBD I generation technology and require a roller machine and tail pipe sensors. Fewer and fewer of STAR and Test Only shops have them or if they do, they aren't working because so few cars these days require them. CA compliant CAT systems are harder to find and expensive also. OEM BMW CAT's are still the best but are super expensive.
Vince nailed it on smog. And just because it passes one year, doesn't mean it will pass the next time, even if nothing has changed. HC and CO generally aren't difficult, but one of the best things about E28s when they were new is a liability now. They had virtually no smog equipment, meaning Nox, without an EGR system is difficult. On the other hand, mine always passed even at 330K when I sold it. Original cat and while I kept it up, I didn't throw parts at it either.

So far as which to buy, which do you want? And Why? Prices are escalating on both, but especially E30s.
The older BMWs had more smog equipment (EGR, smog pump, thermal reactors) then the 3 way cat & Lamda sond threw all that off...then the lovely government made the law stricter, and all the crap came back, now made of plastic. Solution! Buy an electric car says Kamala Harris (The Marie Antoinette of the 21st century) :rofl:

The SoCal solution for classic car owners is to buy a pre 1976 car. Seriously, with the way environmentalists are, aided by those nice people in government and their bureaucrat minions, get a 2002, e3, e9 or 1975 e12.
e12euro
Posts: 220
Joined: Jan 11, 2007 4:28 AM
Location: EA

Re: Should this be my 1st "classic"?

Post by e12euro »

Panici wrote: Aug 16, 2022 1:50 PM I don't see why you can't daily drive either an E28 or E30.
I summer daily drove my E30 for 4-5 years, never left me stranded. I plan to daily drive my E28 when it is ready.
After you go through everything mechanically you'll have a reliable ride that always brings a smile to your face.

My vote goes for a manual trans. The first serious modification I did to my E30 was taking out the 3-speed auto in favour of a 5-speed manual. Old automatics are dogs and ruin the driving experience IMO.

You will find more aftermarket support for the E30. There are even still many parts available from BMW themselves.

As said be prepared to turn a wrench yourself if you want to save some money. These cars are simple and there are plenty of enthusiasts out there willing to share knowledge.

One thing I didn't see mentioned is safety. Crash ratings have come A LONG way in 35+ years.
Know that driving a classic without airbags or crumple zones is a compromise in safety.
It's a little out-of-the-box, but I highly recommend taking a motorcycle safety course to learn true defensive driving. When your life is on the line, you get pretty good at identifying hazards.
Between motorcycle experience and closed-course HPDE days (to build muscle memory and car control), I have avoided multiple instances that would have written off my older vehicles.

Only you can decide what level of risk is acceptable.
I personally have daily driven a tiny 1990 Miata for the past two years. It's definitely less safe then an E28!


Whatever you decide, keep us in the loop!
If a car is over 5 years old, it's unknown if its airbags will function as well as they would when that vehicle was new, and the same goes for seatbelt tensioners, they have a shelf life. Of course if you change your car every 3-4 years, like most people, this isn't a problem.

The pre fuel crisis design upscale German cars were pretty solid, as can be seen with this Bavaria and Mercedes W108 in real life crash testing, with a real driver on board.

Real Life Crash Test Bavaria & W108

To back this up I have recently heard of an e12 5 series that ran into a tree at the speed in the above video, and no one was injured. They all wore their seatbelts naturally. Improving on the Bavaria, e12s and e28s have a built in rollbar around the B pillar.

A euro e23 735i automatic was as quick as a stick shift US 635CSi, but yes, the North American automatic cars are hampered by their extra weight and smog controlled engines. The euro 218 hp e28 535i automatic was a decent car.
Mike W.
Posts: 26872
Joined: Feb 12, 2006 12:00 PM
Location: California Whine Country

Re: Should this be my 1st "classic"?

Post by Mike W. »

e12euro wrote: Aug 17, 2022 1:19 PM

The older BMWs had more smog equipment (EGR, smog pump, thermal reactors) then the 3 way cat & Lamda sond threw all that off...then the lovely government made the law stricter, and all the crap came back, now made of plastic. Solution! Buy an electric car says Kamala Harris (The Marie Antoinette of the 21st century) :rofl:
Pretty much everything had more smog equipment in those days, BMWs with O2 sensors and a 3 way cat were a revelation. And then with motronic and no dist to mess with it was unreal. Nearly everyone else had miles of vacuum hoses, switching valves, air pumps and EGR, with half a HP per cubic inch. BMW was pushing a horse a cube in the E12, somewhat less in E28s but more HP overall with better fuel economy while everyone else was doing bandaids. But... the state has ratcheted emissions ever tighter on E12s at least in the years I've been involved with them.

Kamala Harris? She strangely has a liberal reputation now, but she was a very conservative DA for some time. I see her as a conservative, which is not a good thing. And she may very well be the first woman president of the US, perhaps for better and worse.

The SoCal solution for classic car owners is to buy a pre 1976 car. Seriously, with the way environmentalists are, aided by those nice people in government and their bureaucrat minions, get a 2002, e3, e9 or 1975 e12.
Not many of those left, those that are command a premium and for the most part aren't great cars anymore. A 35 year old car is one thing, pushing or at 50 as an early E3 would be is old.
e12euro
Posts: 220
Joined: Jan 11, 2007 4:28 AM
Location: EA

Re: Should this be my 1st "classic"?

Post by e12euro »

Mike W. wrote: Aug 17, 2022 7:38 PM
e12euro wrote: Aug 17, 2022 1:19 PM

The older BMWs had more smog equipment (EGR, smog pump, thermal reactors) then the 3 way cat & Lamda sond threw all that off...then the lovely government made the law stricter, and all the crap came back, now made of plastic. Solution! Buy an electric car says Kamala Harris (The Marie Antoinette of the 21st century) :rofl:
Pretty much everything had more smog equipment in those days, BMWs with O2 sensors and a 3 way cat were a revelation. And then with motronic and no dist to mess with it was unreal. Nearly everyone else had miles of vacuum hoses, switching valves, air pumps and EGR, with half a HP per cubic inch. BMW was pushing a horse a cube in the E12, somewhat less in E28s but more HP overall with better fuel economy while everyone else was doing bandaids. But... the state has ratcheted emissions ever tighter on E12s at least in the years I've been involved with them.

Kamala Harris? She strangely has a liberal reputation now, but she was a very conservative DA for some time. I see her as a conservative, which is not a good thing. And she may very well be the first woman president of the US, perhaps for better and worse.

The SoCal solution for classic car owners is to buy a pre 1976 car. Seriously, with the way environmentalists are, aided by those nice people in government and their bureaucrat minions, get a 2002, e3, e9 or 1975 e12.
Not many of those left, those that are command a premium and for the most part aren't great cars anymore. A 35 year old car is one thing, pushing or at 50 as an early E3 would be is old.
I think it was certainly a sign of how smog law got stricter in the '80s, where the US M30B34 at 182 hp, wasn't as high output as the earlier M30B28. The M30B35 and the S38B36 corrected that with the technology catching up again. It always seems the case when the legislators set the bar too high you get a performance shortfall, and backsliding. This may yet happen again. I believe that between 1969 and 1993 the M30 only ever had EGR during 1973-79, California alone during 1973-74. The smog pump only during 1975-79. So, compared to others the M30 stayed very free, although the lean carburetion of the 1969-74 cars did affect drivability. The should have adopted Bosch D-jet during 1972-74 in America.

When gas prices got high Kamala Harris said go get an electric car, that's why I brought her up. However, there is that mentality of cake in place of bread with many environmentalists, ignoring practical reality.

It is true that the pre 1976 exempt cars are now getting scare and very old, but I have heard some say they bought a 1974 etc, to get beyond the smog testing problem. There are classic car dealers with stock saying for sale to out of state customers only, and a number of potential classics have either left California, or have been crushed because they can't meet smog. At least if you can find an e3 or e12, you would be free to modify it.

And here's a SoCal 1975 530i!

530i page 1

530i page 2
hobbes
Posts: 16
Joined: Aug 15, 2022 11:09 AM
Location: Ventura

Re: Should this be my 1st "classic"?

Post by hobbes »

I just want to thank everyone for their replys. I've decided to go with a personal 3rd vehicle which will be a daily driver - ish. My budget is up to $18k and i'm looking for one in California thats smog test.
Panici
Posts: 217
Joined: Aug 07, 2014 2:04 AM
Location: Canada

Re: Should this be my 1st "classic"?

Post by Panici »

hobbes wrote: Sep 28, 2022 12:58 AM I just want to thank everyone for their replys. I've decided to go with a personal 3rd vehicle which will be a daily driver - ish. My budget is up to $18k and i'm looking for one in California thats smog test.
Sounds like a good choice.

This way you can tinker on the classic without worrying if it can take you to work the next day.
BMWCCA2
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Re: Should this be my 1st "classic"?

Post by BMWCCA2 »

hobbes wrote: Sep 28, 2022 12:58 AM I just want to thank everyone for their replys. I've decided to go with a personal 3rd vehicle which will be a daily driver - ish. My budget is up to $18k and i'm looking for one in California thats smog test.
Sounds like a perfect candidate for an E82 128i 6-speed and well within your budget. I made that choice a few years ago and still "daily" the E28 at least twice per month. The last of an era of driver's cars for BMW, and same size as my '73 tii but with twice the power, working A/C, Bluetooth, and I don't need to baby it. Becoming a Classic is better than trying to buy into something already considered a "Classic". But then I already have two E28s . . .

Image
hobbes
Posts: 16
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Location: Ventura

Re: Should this be my 1st "classic"?

Post by hobbes »

My heart is set on an e28. My modern Subi does everything I need in the modern car category for me.
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