The TCD Hartge M535i is for sale

General conversations about BMW E28s and the people who own them.
C.R. Krieger
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Post by C.R. Krieger »

mooseheadm5 wrote:
Mark in Toronto wrote:Instead of an M535 clone, perhaps it would be more accurate to call the car a 545 clone because it has a M106 block.
You can't clone a car that doesn't exist.
I understand that the SA (South Africa) factory lunatics slapped together a handful of '545' 5ers with 745 engines in 'em - but those might have been E12s (my memory fails me) and in any event, they would have been RHD. Still, if somebody wanted to put a "545" on the ass end of this, it would hardly diminish what it is.
Justin_FL
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Post by Justin_FL »

KillerPM wrote:Reading back at things, Duke never really hid the fact so I would assume that TT knew the details. There really is no way he didn't.

Heh...

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/269576/1985-bmw-5-series

I guess I never really read into the details...
LOL, that was a recent change about the "US 535i" story on that webpage. Consult the Wayback machine.

I don't buy the "US chassis swap" story as the car existed when Duke sold the car. Would Duke even go through so much trouble as to move the antenna from the factory installed location for a power antenna on the right (standard equipment on all US E28s), over to the upper left side of the rear quarter? That is the typical dealer installed location on Euro cars. Now it appears the antenna is shaved off entirely (don't see it on my phone's screen), probably during the latest repaint. Wouldn't be that hard to peel back a few interior trim panels or inspect the body for the chassis' "original" schwarz paint or lack of Euro specific differences.

Also, the B-pillar FMVSS conformance sticker isn't correct for the year and is definitely not original. That body should have the foil labels that are "pin punched" for an original US car made 7/85. The later US E28s had the black with white text labels. Can't remember if the bar code is supposed to be there, I never looked that closely at either of my 535s or M5 with this type.

Still a nifty E28, though.
Kyle in NO
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Post by Kyle in NO »

I'd love to see pics of the trunk floor pan, to see if there are bumper shock frame rails present. No rails = not a US car. I also agree with Justin that this type of door jamb VIN label was never used on an e28. They should have the white label with dot-matrix style date code. Something simply isn't right here.

Sorry Tony, I hate to bring it up. I just hope you aren't caught in a compromising situation here.
Duke
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Post by Duke »

VIN sticker - that is a replacement VIN sticker due to original being damaged. With the car being shipped back and forth to Germany, I did not want customs to have any questions/issues with it.

The Savannah BMW dealership inspected the car and verified the VIN before they ordered a new sticker. They removed and destroyed the original sticker before applying the replacement.

Give them a call as they did this in 2001. I am sure they keep track of things like that.

Oh yea, the Watergate tapes are in the glove box too.
KillerPM
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Post by KillerPM »

Justin_FL wrote:
KillerPM wrote:Reading back at things, Duke never really hid the fact so I would assume that TT knew the details. There really is no way he didn't.

Heh...

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/269576/1985-bmw-5-series

I guess I never really read into the details...
LOL, that was a recent change about the "US 535i" story on that webpage. Consult the Wayback machine.

I don't buy the "US chassis swap" story as the car existed when Duke sold the car. Would Duke even go through so much trouble as to move the antenna from the factory installed location for a power antenna on the right (standard equipment on all US E28s), over to the upper left side of the rear quarter? That is the typical dealer installed location on Euro cars. Now it appears the antenna is shaved off entirely (don't see it on my phone's screen), probably during the latest repaint. Wouldn't be that hard to peel back a few interior trim panels or inspect the body for the chassis' "original" schwarz paint or lack of Euro specific differences.

Also, the B-pillar FMVSS conformance sticker isn't correct for the year and is definitely not original. That body should have the foil labels that are "pin punched" for an original US car made 7/85. The later US E28s had the black with white text labels. Can't remember if the bar code is supposed to be there, I never looked that closely at either of my 535s or M5 with this type.

Still a nifty E28, though.
This is VERY true. The story HAS changed as of very recently.

So either this car has illegally had its VIN swapped, or we have all been lied to for the past few years.

Which is it?

Here is the archived version of the cardomain page:

http://web.archive.org/web/200904101910 ... ide/269576

(Still a cool car, but what the heck!)
Kyle in NO
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Post by Kyle in NO »

So, just to confirm, the trunk floor DOES have the bumper shock reinforcements present, as every US spec car has? This will be proof positive.
Jeremy
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Post by Jeremy »

Duke wrote:I did not want customs to have any questions/issues with it.
And I think that, boys and girls, is about as close as you'll get to the "real story" regarding the VIN on this particular car.
KillerPM
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Post by KillerPM »

Jeremy wrote:
Duke wrote:I did not want customs to have any questions/issues with it.
And I think that, boys and girls, is about as close as you'll get to the "real story" regarding the VIN on this particular car.
I guess we will leave it at this then...
Kyle in NO
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Post by Kyle in NO »

The shit is getting deep now fellas. Even the CarDomain page has been changed, as KillerPM has noted. Wow.

You'd think this was a Democratic election campaign if you didn't know better!
Karl Grau
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Post by Karl Grau »

Kyle in NO wrote:You'd think this was a Democratic election campaign if you didn't know better!
:facepalm: :popcorn:
L_N_Love
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Post by L_N_Love »

"VINGATE"
unt0uchable
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Post by unt0uchable »

KillerPM wrote: This is VERY true. The story HAS changed as of very recently.

So either this car has illegally had its VIN swapped, or we have all been lied to for the past few years.

Which is it?

Here is the archived version of the cardomain page:

http://web.archive.org/web/200904101910 ... ide/269576

(Still a cool car, but what the heck!)
The only difference I found between the archive and the current car domain page was this right here:
Latest CarDomain Page wrote:I had the US car stripped and painted. I was charged 3000 DM ($1300) for a complete paint job! The Germans loved working on the car. There are very few cars of this age in Germany still on the road, they all get crushed due to very restrictive safety inspections.
Archived CarDomain Page wrote:I had the car stripped and painted. I was charged 3000 DM ($1300) for a complete paint job! The Germans loved working on the car. There are very few cars of this age in Germany still on the road, they all get crushed due to very restrictive safety inspections.
So what. It's a bad ass car no matter the history, and it's obviously been fully gone through. It's practically new Anyway, so what's it matter if the VIN ain't tellin the whole story. If you are looking at this car, you aren't looking for a purist version of an M535i Anyway....
Mark in Toronto
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Post by Mark in Toronto »

Karl Grau wrote:
Kyle in NO wrote:You'd think this was a Democratic election campaign if you didn't know better!
:facepalm: :popcorn:
I just plugged in the hot air popcorn machine......... :argue:
L_N_Love
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Post by L_N_Love »

unt0uchable wrote: So what. It's a bad ass car no matter the history, and it's obviously been fully gone through. It's practically new anyway, so what's it matter if the VIN ain't tellin the whole story. If you are looking at this car, you aren't looking for a purist version of an M535i anyway....
It is a cool car. The issue is whether is was legally imported. Maybe it doesn't matter anyway since it is now 27 yrs. old.
Kyle in NO
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Post by Kyle in NO »

Actually the real issue is whether the car is registered using a false VIN, which would be a big problem.
Mark in Toronto
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Post by Mark in Toronto »

KillerPM wrote:The story HAS changed as of very recently.

So either this car has illegally had its VIN swapped, or we have all been lied to for the past few years.

Which is it?
Why would someone go to the trouble to change the Cardomain story? Especially very recently. Seems rather odd.
C.R. Krieger wrote:
mooseheadm5 wrote:
Mark in Toronto wrote:Instead of an M535 clone, perhaps it would be more accurate to call the car a 545 clone because it has a M106 block.
You can't clone a car that doesn't exist.
I understand that the SA (South Africa) factory lunatics slapped together a handful of '545' 5ers with 745 engines in 'em - but those might have been E12s (my memory fails me) and in any event, they would have been RHD. Still, if somebody wanted to put a "545" on the ass end of this, it would hardly diminish what it is.
Come to think of it, not sure about an e28 545, but the South Africans did drop an M30 into a limited number of e30's.
oldskool
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Post by oldskool »

T minus zero 'til Duke starts to get pissy.
I'mma grab beer. . .
adrian in florida
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Post by adrian in florida »

I recall Duke discussing the paint shop in Germany. So the car was painted there. Pretty good job as I recall. I recall the blown head gaskets on the initial turbo set up... Who could ever forget that :argue:

I recall numerous kill stories.

I can see how the Vin descrepancies could hurt the value but the reality is its a hot rodded vehicle and it one of a kind.

I always, for some reason ,thought it was an m535 that was modded... I guess I misunderstood whay Duke meant to say.

No matter what , still a cool car especially if the current owner got rid of the gremlins and the chicken.
tsmall07
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Post by tsmall07 »

KillerPM wrote: This is VERY true. The story HAS changed as of very recently.

So either this car has illegally had its VIN swapped, or we have all been lied to for the past few years.

Which is it?

Here is the archived version of the cardomain page:

http://web.archive.org/web/200904101910 ... ide/269576

(Still a cool car, but what the heck!)
The old page is the old one, too. It definitely leads you to believe that the car is and has always been a euro car.
carnutdallas
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Post by carnutdallas »

Kyle in NO wrote:Actually the real issue is whether the car is registered using a false VIN, which would be a big problem.
Why? It exist. It is not stolen. The car has a very well documented history. The only people who know much about it are those of us who are on here. Anyone else who wants to know more can read these pages - well the pages of the 8+ year old threads. VIN really is not shit but a way for governments to track and tax us. They were designed to prevent fraud on huge scale, by those intending to defraud millions of people - not one or two. They were designed to systematize the industry with relation to warranty, manufacture and importation. If an individual builds a one off car out of two, documents it and discloses the reason behind the actions he took to get a car into the US, I am more than fine with it. I built nearly 10 kit cars and registered them in Texas. They were Cobra replicas and to title them in the 90's in Texas we used mustang VIN's from donor frames. 10 years later the state of Texas developed a program to generate a VIN for a "kit" car and for an individual to register it; that was born out of the growth and popularity of the auto enthusiast industry for "kit" cars.

BMW couldn't care less about the car. The price of the car reflects the value of the car as a whole right now, not its collect-ability in the future. It is just a cool car.....let it go. Forget the past.....move on. It is 2012 and no one on this particular thread is trying to buy it.....yet. If I am missing something or I am way out of line, forgive me. I really have no dog in this fight. I just hate to see a silly thread about a non-issue in my mind. -Peace
Last edited by carnutdallas on Aug 09, 2012 4:48 PM, edited 1 time in total.
TT
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Post by TT »

Guys...this isn't Duke's car anymore, it's my car. It is legally titled in Arizona, has been legally titled in GA and TN and has gone through inspections with US Customs a hand full of times, the State of Arizona (I was present for that one) and BMW itself.
If you have a problem with Duke, then take it up with him. Please do not involve me or my car. I do not appreciate the slander.
Mark in Toronto
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Post by Mark in Toronto »

oldskool wrote:T minus zero 'til Duke starts to get pissy.
I'mma grab beer. . .
Just cracked a cold one. Forget about watching the Olympics tonight.
adrian in florida wrote:No matter what , still a cool car especially if the current owner got rid of the gremlins...
I totally agree.
Mike W. wrote:Tony I don't think anyone is hammering you, this is just some surprising info about something that was much discussed way back when and is not what we thought. I at least, see no misrepresentation on your part. Maybe someone before you acquired it, but not you.
x2 and well said (or written).
Last edited by Mark in Toronto on Aug 09, 2012 4:38 PM, edited 2 times in total.
Mike W.
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Post by Mike W. »

Tony I don't think anyone is hammering you, this is just some surprising info about something that was much discussed way back when and is not what we thought. I at least, see no misrepresentation on your part. Maybe someone before you acquired it, but not you.
Karl Grau
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Post by Karl Grau »

oldskool wrote:T minus zero 'til Duke starts to get pissy.
I'mma grab beer. . .
:heehee:
L_N_Love
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Post by L_N_Love »

Mike W. wrote:Tony I don't think anyone is hammering you, this is just some surprising info about something that was much discussed way back when and is not what we thought. I at least, see no misrepresentation on your part. Maybe someone before you acquired it, but not you.
+1000
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