Scotty Kilmer & e36 325i

General conversations about BMW E28s and the people who own them.
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e12euro
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Scotty Kilmer & e36 325i

Post by e12euro »

Scotty Kilmer finally finds a BMW he likes. Like the Car Wizard, the mechanics still have respect for the old school machines. Yes, they are slow next to today's turbocharged rockets, but there's something to be said for a machine that can keep going day to day, without "Death By Error Code". Can today's BMW hang together without burning oil after 27 years and 250,000 miles? I doubt it. :laugh:

One thing they can learn from the old 3HP and 4HP 22 ZF automatics, is include a drain plug so you can change the fluid. It makes them last longer. ;)

e36 325i conv automatic

e12 530i automatic
Shawn D.
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Re: Scotty Kilmer & e36 325i

Post by Shawn D. »

That dude is one of the more annoying car guys on YouTube -- I'm fine with not watching his BMW video. :P
e12euro
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Re: Scotty Kilmer & e36 325i

Post by e12euro »

Shawn D. wrote: May 01, 2021 11:21 PM That dude is one of the more annoying car guys on YouTube -- I'm fine with not watching his BMW video. :P
There seems to be a competition these days as to who can be the most "out there" presenter. Look at MotorWeek's John Davis, he used to be so calm in the early years. I don't think we will ever get back to a time when reviews are straight to the point, info giving accounts, like this one on the 1974 BMW 1602 & 2002 Turbo. :cool:

ITV Drive review of 02' range - 1974

And how long has it been since a TV presenter wore a tie? It isn't a reality show, it's the real thing, and so was the car. It isn't a smart phone on 4 wheels, it's a machine you actually drive. :cool:
Motronic
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Re: Scotty Kilmer & e36 325i

Post by Motronic »

Scotty has gone off the deep end since his early videos. He especially loves to employ the Clickbait titles now. I filtered him out on my recommended videos algorithm. He’s just annoying without interesting content anymore.
Hit Man X
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Re: Scotty Kilmer & e36 325i

Post by Hit Man X »

3HP22 and 4HP22 both have drain plugs as well as the 4HP24. Late 4HP22 have a deeper pan, did you know that?

Yes, I know as I rebuild them.
gadget73
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Re: Scotty Kilmer & e36 325i

Post by gadget73 »

Scotty is definitely on the annoying side. He's like the Billy Mays of Youtube "mechanics".

I knew about the 4hp22 drain plug. I also know that when I drained mine, then had to refill it without dropping the pan because I forgot to order a replacement filter the trans got really stupid. Ended up having to pull the governor apart and remove the crap from it. Pretty sure the fluid change stirred up the sludge on the bottom of the pan and it got upset. After dropping the pan, cleaning the gunk out, and getting the governor clean it works just fine.
e12euro
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Re: Scotty Kilmer & e36 325i

Post by e12euro »

Hit Man X wrote: May 03, 2021 12:42 AM 3HP22 and 4HP22 both have drain plugs as well as the 4HP24. Late 4HP22 have a deeper pan, did you know that?

Yes, I know as I rebuild them.
That's what I said, they have drain plugs, the modern boxes don't. I have had e12s and e28s with the 3HP22 and 4HP22, you refill them through the dipstick. Modern boxes are sealed for lifetime use (10 years says most companies).
Hit Man X
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Re: Scotty Kilmer & e36 325i

Post by Hit Man X »

Ah. I misread. :oops:

I really dislike the 5HP drain and fill on bottom. :roll:
gadget73
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Re: Scotty Kilmer & e36 325i

Post by gadget73 »

is it one of those things where you use a special fitting screwed into the pan in order to get the level correct? Not a fan of no dipsticks, but I've spent my life driving old, leaky things. Not being able to check fluids would have burned up a lot of money for me.
e12euro
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Re: Scotty Kilmer & e36 325i

Post by e12euro »

Hit Man X wrote: May 03, 2021 1:38 PM Ah. I misread. :oops:

I really dislike the 5HP drain and fill on bottom. :roll:
Is that like a differential where you have the drain plug underneath and the fill plug on the side? I think I have seen something like that, but it mayn't have been the 5HP.

The fewer speeds of older boxes is only a problem when you try to get a really high top speed. Like on the Ferrari 400 V12 coupe or the early Porsche 928S going for 150 mph with a 3 speeder. That's why the Ferrari did 0-60 mph in 8 seconds. The tall diff ratio meant 0-60 mph is done in 1st alone! ;)
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Re: Scotty Kilmer & e36 325i

Post by gadget73 »

2 speeds were even worse, especially when paired with a wheezy I6 in a full size 2 ton barge. You either have to use a low diff gear for acceleration to make up for the tall first gear in the trans, or a tall diff gear to run at highway speeds. I really appreciate overdrive transmissions, though I do wonder if there is really much to gain beyond 6 speeds. Only 8 speed I've ever ridden in shifted horribly and constantly though, so I may have a slightly unfair opinion about them.
e12euro
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Re: Scotty Kilmer & e36 325i

Post by e12euro »

gadget73 wrote: May 04, 2021 10:00 AM 2 speeds were even worse, especially when paired with a wheezy I6 in a full size 2 ton barge. You either have to use a low diff gear for acceleration to make up for the tall first gear in the trans, or a tall diff gear to run at highway speeds. I really appreciate overdrive transmissions, though I do wonder if there is really much to gain beyond 6 speeds. Only 8 speed I've ever ridden in shifted horribly and constantly though, so I may have a slightly unfair opinion about them.
Yes, you really have to balance vehicle weight, top speed, engine size etc. I would say the only Chevy that did well with the Powerglide 2 speed was the C2 Corvette, even with the base 250 hp 327 V8 it was ok, but would have been more flexible with a 3 speed which was given to the next generation C3.

The South African M88 745i automatic had the right idea, combine the ZF 4HP 22 with a 3.73 diff ratio from the e28 M5, and then it balances out much better than the Ferrari and Porsche mentioned above.
LeiseyJr
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Re: Scotty Kilmer & e36 325i

Post by LeiseyJr »

e12euro wrote: Apr 29, 2021 3:00 PM

e12 530i automatic
That video of the e12. That car was a 4 speed. Seen here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPODTmOQ0xA
Hit Man X
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Re: Scotty Kilmer & e36 325i

Post by Hit Man X »

The 928S had the MB 722.3 as I recall, gotta love second gear starts. But I THINK the early cars had first gear starts. Pal of mine had one, I forget which year was what.

Super solid trans, 330k on one of mine. Yah, the pump bushing died again and a few servo orings are leaking again. What a POS. :laugh: Reverse tends to become lazy in them with age and how it is driven (city cars especially), the OE clutches delaminate for reverse so you lose friction material fast. Odd K1 and K2 (basically third and fourth), do not have this issue. Rev I THINK was an early high energy material attempt, 3/4 are just the old ass Borg Warner tan business. Last one I tore down still had the OE MB part number and Star stamped on the forward frictions. :shock:

My black 745i has a 3.91:1 with the 4HP EH. Great combo off boost and for stock K27 at mild boost levels. With the modified K27 I have now, it is just too much gear. Never really loads the combo down until in second gear. Hard to explain.

Modern 8-10 speed units are pretty much just for economy. They have split ratios to downshift, I call them 'prime' gears. Such as fifth and fifth prime, unsure correct term. I drove a newer Ford 5.0/10 speed truck, it was very goofy. It would maintain 10th on flat roads around 70mph, any incline would downshift to 9 to 8 to 7. :roll: Normal accel skipped gears. And the start/stop at a light. :evil:
e12euro
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Re: Scotty Kilmer & e36 325i

Post by e12euro »

LeiseyJr wrote: May 04, 2021 12:08 PM
e12euro wrote: Apr 29, 2021 3:00 PM

e12 530i automatic
That video of the e12. That car was a 4 speed. Seen here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPODTmOQ0xA
Thanks, I kept looking for the "automatic" trunklid script, but couldn't find it. Just assumed it fell off. :laugh:
e12euro
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Re: Scotty Kilmer & e36 325i

Post by e12euro »

Hit Man X wrote: May 04, 2021 2:08 PM The 928S had the MB 722.3 as I recall, gotta love second gear starts. But I THINK the early cars had first gear starts. Pal of mine had one, I forget which year was what.

Super solid trans, 330k on one of mine. Yah, the pump bushing died again and a few servo orings are leaking again. What a POS. :laugh: Reverse tends to become lazy in them with age and how it is driven (city cars especially), the OE clutches delaminate for reverse so you lose friction material fast. Odd K1 and K2 (basically third and fourth), do not have this issue. Rev I THINK was an early high energy material attempt, 3/4 are just the old ass Borg Warner tan business. Last one I tore down still had the OE MB part number and Star stamped on the forward frictions. :shock:

My black 745i has a 3.91:1 with the 4HP EH. Great combo off boost and for stock K27 at mild boost levels. With the modified K27 I have now, it is just too much gear. Never really loads the combo down until in second gear. Hard to explain.

Modern 8-10 speed units are pretty much just for economy. They have split ratios to downshift, I call them 'prime' gears. Such as fifth and fifth prime, unsure correct term. I drove a newer Ford 5.0/10 speed truck, it was very goofy. It would maintain 10th on flat roads around 70mph, any incline would downshift to 9 to 8 to 7. :roll: Normal accel skipped gears. And the start/stop at a light. :evil:
People would be surprised these days to know there was a time when MB cars were very slow, and were made even slower by their automatics that started in second gear. I think this ended with the final Mercedes 190s.

3.91 sounds good. That's where the original 1980-82 745i went wrong, a 3.07 diff ratio and the 3HP 22. It worked ok on the autobahn, because punch the gas pedal around 50-60 mph and you kicked down into 2nd which was good until 90 mph, and you were well into boost by then. In city driving it wasn't good, especially once the car had been smogged as a gray market import.
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Re: Scotty Kilmer & e36 325i

Post by gadget73 »

e12euro wrote: May 04, 2021 12:02 PM

The South African M88 745i automatic had the right idea, combine the ZF 4HP 22 with a 3.73 diff ratio from the e28 M5, and then it balances out much better than the Ferrari and Porsche mentioned above.
My diesel Continental uses that combo, but I think thats more about dealing with the less than stellar performance of the M21 in a heavy car. The gasoline versions got a 3.08 rear, but they also had nearly double the torque and it came in at a lower rpm. On the other hand the M21 is much happier with some RPM than the V8 was, so its still OK on the highway.
e12euro
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Re: Scotty Kilmer & e36 325i

Post by e12euro »

gadget73 wrote: May 05, 2021 9:54 AM
e12euro wrote: May 04, 2021 12:02 PM

The South African M88 745i automatic had the right idea, combine the ZF 4HP 22 with a 3.73 diff ratio from the e28 M5, and then it balances out much better than the Ferrari and Porsche mentioned above.
My diesel Continental uses that combo, but I think thats more about dealing with the less than stellar performance of the M21 in a heavy car. The gasoline versions got a 3.08 rear, but they also had nearly double the torque and it came in at a lower rpm. On the other hand the M21 is much happier with some RPM than the V8 was, so its still OK on the highway.
That 3.08 ratio was also used on the Mustangs with the same 5.0 V8 I think. The M21 was helping BMW and Ford with their fleet average for CAFE in the '80s. I wonder if diesels will play any role in stricter economy targets today? Seems unlikely with moves to electrify, although in Europe diesel still has a big following given fuel prices over there.
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Re: Scotty Kilmer & e36 325i

Post by gadget73 »

Mustangs were also lighter, but 3.08 or 3.27 sounds right.

I think the Ford / BMW diesel thing just came too late to work here. All told Lincoln put together about 4000 cars and gave up on the idea. Its not an awful car, but the public was already well soured on diesels thanks to GM. By the time that was basically forgotten, VW went and ruined opinions on them with the emissions thing. At this point even if it made excellent sense I don't see passenger car diesels ever really becoming a thing in the US. They're popular in trucks but considering how expensive they seem to be just to keep them working I don't understand why anyone who doesn't honestly need one would ever buy one.
e12euro
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Re: Scotty Kilmer & e36 325i

Post by e12euro »

gadget73 wrote: May 05, 2021 1:49 PM Mustangs were also lighter, but 3.08 or 3.27 sounds right.

I think the Ford / BMW diesel thing just came too late to work here. All told Lincoln put together about 4000 cars and gave up on the idea. Its not an awful car, but the public was already well soured on diesels thanks to GM. By the time that was basically forgotten, VW went and ruined opinions on them with the emissions thing. At this point even if it made excellent sense I don't see passenger car diesels ever really becoming a thing in the US. They're popular in trucks but considering how expensive they seem to be just to keep them working I don't understand why anyone who doesn't honestly need one would ever buy one.
Yes, the diesel craze was really over by the time the 524td reached America, and the hook up with Ford. To this day the old school Mercedes guys love the diesels. They say it's because they last so long and don't need much servicing, but many of those old school models are very slow. To this day people remember the GM Olds 350 diesel V8 very badly.

In Europe they never really had a choice given gas prices are always so high, diesel is expensive too, but the cars just go so much further on a gallon. Plus, everyone saw how good those VW diesels were when they cheated on emissions with full Euro spec. :cool:
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Re: Scotty Kilmer & e36 325i

Post by Mike W. »

e12euro wrote: May 03, 2021 2:30 PM
Hit Man X wrote: May 03, 2021 1:38 PM Ah. I misread. :oops:

I really dislike the 5HP drain and fill on bottom. :roll:
Is that like a differential where you have the drain plug underneath and the fill plug on the side? I think I have seen something like that, but it mayn't have been the 5HP.
Yes, but... The V8 cars fill thru the bottom, haven't done it but I guess there's an internal tube or something. The I6s fill like a manual tranny, except you have to have both of them running, warmed up, shift thru the gears and top if off while it's still running. :brickwall:
Yes, you really have to balance vehicle weight, top speed, engine size etc. I would say the only Chevy that did well with the Powerglide 2 speed was the C2 Corvette, even with the base 250 hp 327 V8 it was ok, but would have been more flexible with a 3 speed which was given to the next generation C3.
In spite of my absolute loathing of GM, I've got to agree and even expand it a bit to other Chevy's with 327 4 barrels. I've driven first gen Cameros and even mid 60s Impalas with 327s and they weren't bad. Unlike say the Ford 289 which was an absolute pig with a 2 speed auto.
e12euro
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Re: Scotty Kilmer & e36 325i

Post by e12euro »

Mike W. wrote: May 07, 2021 4:15 PM
e12euro wrote: May 03, 2021 2:30 PM
Hit Man X wrote: May 03, 2021 1:38 PM Ah. I misread. :oops:

I really dislike the 5HP drain and fill on bottom. :roll:
Is that like a differential where you have the drain plug underneath and the fill plug on the side? I think I have seen something like that, but it mayn't have been the 5HP.
Yes, but... The V8 cars fill thru the bottom, haven't done it but I guess there's an internal tube or something. The I6s fill like a manual tranny, except you have to have both of them running, warmed up, shift thru the gears and top if off while it's still running. :brickwall:
Yes, you really have to balance vehicle weight, top speed, engine size etc. I would say the only Chevy that did well with the Powerglide 2 speed was the C2 Corvette, even with the base 250 hp 327 V8 it was ok, but would have been more flexible with a 3 speed which was given to the next generation C3.
In spite of my absolute loathing of GM, I've got to agree and even expand it a bit to other Chevy's with 327 4 barrels. I've driven first gen Cameros and even mid 60s Impalas with 327s and they weren't bad. Unlike say the Ford 289 which was an absolute pig with a 2 speed auto.
Filling from the bottom sounds so strange, and I can't imagine the BMW service department being bothered to change the fluids on the V8s or the I6s. They might charge you for it, and say they did it if requested though. :laugh:

There was a simpler, and cheaper version of the Powerglide called Torque Drive. It was basically a Powerglide with some stuff missing, and you had to shift it manually between low and high, like the later Hondamatics. That's probably where Honda got the idea. :) GM generally had better engines than Ford, but I suppose the whole idea behind 2 speed automatics was to have something cheaper available, at a time when a fully automatic 3 or 4 speed gearbox was a luxury, a very long time ago.
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