m21 Identification

Finally, a home for all you 524td oil burners out there.
Post Reply
IntrotoDiesel
Posts: 6
Joined: May 01, 2020 11:46 PM
Location: California

m21 Identification

Post by IntrotoDiesel »

I recently picked up an M21 without much history, looking to get into diesels as I've toyed with gas and ethanol already. Motor was pulled from a International scout that someone had tossed it in a few years ago, original car is unknown. According to the guy I got it from it might be from a 1985 but being in California I need to know before I can put it in anything and BAR it.

Motor has a Boche VE injection pump and obviously a turbo being hopefully an 85, but I don't know what else to look for to identify it's production year or tell if it's a out of a Lincoln or E28. Plan in to put it back in a BMW but learning more about the motor itself comes first.

I've got some pictures of casting codes on the block
Image
Image
Can and will take closer pictures of anything useful to identify it

One of the injection pump if that gives anything away, should be a Bosch VE pump if my research last night payed off
Image

I'm going to keep doing research on it as well but if anyone can help me narrow it down or tell from what I see as gibberish on the block that would be much appreciated
gadget73
Posts: 574
Joined: Nov 22, 2017 11:30 PM
Location: New Jersey

Re: m21 Identification

Post by gadget73 »

Valve cover with a Ford logo is the big clue if it came out of a Lincoln. Accessories are also completely different. BMW uses a twin V belt drive, Ford uses one V, one 6 rib. V runs the alternator and water pump, 6 rib for the AC and power steering. Ford put the alt bottom right, AC bottom left, PS top left. BMW I think reversed the AC and alternator. Also very very few 1985 diesel Lincolns were made. Almost all of them were '84 models, and my understanding is that the handful of '85 were just left-over 1984 models.

US-spec BMW ran a VP pump with the electronic timing control. California-spec Lincolns had it too. If thats a VE pump, its either a 49 state Lincoln or a Euro BMW unit, unless its just a VE pump from something else. Mine has a timing advance solenoid down low on the pump where yours appears to have a cover plate, so it might be a pump from something else.
IntrotoDiesel
Posts: 6
Joined: May 01, 2020 11:46 PM
Location: California

Re: m21 Identification

Post by IntrotoDiesel »

gadget73 wrote:Valve cover with a Ford logo is the big clue if it came out of a Lincoln. Accessories are also completely different. BMW uses a twin V belt drive, Ford uses one V, one 6 rib. V runs the alternator and water pump, 6 rib for the AC and power steering. Ford put the alt bottom right, AC bottom left, PS top left. BMW I think reversed the AC and alternator. Also very very few 1985 diesel Lincolns were made. Almost all of them were '84 models, and my understanding is that the handful of '85 were just left-over 1984 models.

US-spec BMW ran a VP pump with the electronic timing control. California-spec Lincolns had it too. If thats a VE pump, its either a 49 state Lincoln or a Euro BMW unit, unless its just a VE pump from something else. Mine has a timing advance solenoid down low on the pump where yours appears to have a cover plate, so it might be a pump from something else.
Valve cover would be a good give away, so defiantly a BMW motor, not sure on year it's just what I was told.

Was the VP pump used threw the entire run of the 524td(s) or was there a split? I'll check for a tag on the pump tonight.
I assume the solenoid on yours is here:
Image
gadget73
Posts: 574
Joined: Nov 22, 2017 11:30 PM
Location: New Jersey

Re: m21 Identification

Post by gadget73 »

yep, thats where the solenoid is.

I *think* all the US-spec 524td got the VP pump. Euro ones got the VE.

The Ford manuals have a section to ID the pump but basically you're looking for the middle row of numbers. The last 4 will tell you which pump. R117 is the non-electronic VE, R118 is the electronic VP-20.

It also has date of mfg on the pump. The bottom row of numbers, second group of 3. Ford doesn't explain this, but their example is "349", which I assume is week 49, 1983. Its in the first manual linked here

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=88207

pg 26.

Based on my understanding of how all that is meant to work, all the electronic system does is retard the timing. It seems to be mechanical advance, and controlling the solenoid just reduces the amount of advance that happens. Seems to me you could convert it to straight mechanical advance without much fuss, but my guess is the advance spring is different, causing more mechanical advance that the computer can pull back out as needed. I might be wrong on that, never messed with the electronic pump and have never delved into the specifics but thats just what I gather based on reading how the thing is meant to function. Description of the VE and VP timing systems are in that manual too.
kingoftarmace2004
Posts: 102
Joined: Mar 15, 2018 3:34 PM
Location: Fall River Mills

Re: m21 Identification

Post by kingoftarmace2004 »

You can put that diesel into anything in California up to 1998. Go see a REF. he will be curious of the vin of the car the engine came from to verify vehicle grouping/weight etc
if everything is good and the swap is complete now you will have diesel As fuel on the title and in california Diesel is smog EXEMPT up to 1998. After 1998 diesel swaps are like the rules of gas powered swaps. Hope this help! -Paul
IntrotoDiesel
Posts: 6
Joined: May 01, 2020 11:46 PM
Location: California

Re: m21 Identification

Post by IntrotoDiesel »

gadget73 wrote:yep, thats where the solenoid is.

I *think* all the US-spec 524td got the VP pump. Euro ones got the VE.

The Ford manuals have a section to ID the pump but basically you're looking for the middle row of numbers. The last 4 will tell you which pump. R117 is the non-electronic VE, R118 is the electronic VP-20.

It also has date of mfg on the pump. The bottom row of numbers, second group of 3. Ford doesn't explain this, but their example is "349", which I assume is week 49, 1983. Its in the first manual linked here

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=88207

pg 26.

Based on my understanding of how all that is meant to work, all the electronic system does is retard the timing. It seems to be mechanical advance, and controlling the solenoid just reduces the amount of advance that happens. Seems to me you could convert it to straight mechanical advance without much fuss, but my guess is the advance spring is different, causing more mechanical advance that the computer can pull back out as needed. I might be wrong on that, never messed with the electronic pump and have never delved into the specifics but thats just what I gather based on reading how the thing is meant to function. Description of the VE and VP timing systems are in that manual too.
After checking the part number it is indeed a VP-20 pump (118) also seems at-least the pump was made in October of 1985 (543), seems like the pump may be from a 86 seeing as it's a little late of a production date for a 85 model year car. The timing advance solenoid has been removed along with the DME and harness, but outside of the VP-20 pump being required the emissions requirements do not list the DME.
Picture of the pump in case I misinterpreted anything
Image

Your interpretation of the solenoid goes along with what Alldata reads, although I'm more wiling to trust you on this one then a program that tells me the wrong oil capacity twice a week.
Behind the pump is another casting mark, reading "18M84", if that means anything
Image
Last edited by IntrotoDiesel on May 06, 2020 9:15 PM, edited 1 time in total.
IntrotoDiesel
Posts: 6
Joined: May 01, 2020 11:46 PM
Location: California

Re: m21 Identification

Post by IntrotoDiesel »

kingoftarmace2004 wrote:You can put that diesel into anything in California up to 1998. Go see a REF. he will be curious of the vin of the car the engine came from to verify vehicle grouping/weight etc
if everything is good and the swap is complete now you will have diesel As fuel on the title and in california Diesel is smog EXEMPT up to 1998. After 1998 diesel swaps are like the rules of gas powered swaps. Hope this help! -Paul
My understanding of the BAR requirements was that the "new" motor must be either an original option for that car in at least America (and if a California complaint model the motor must be as well), or it be from a newer model year vehicle within the same vehicle group(no heavy duty diesel in a passenger car). Because of this I picked up an 84 E30 318 yesterday that the motor will soon find its way into.

While this PDF does not include the "model year must be newer" line I was thinking of it does specify the necessity for all the emissions equipment from the donor vehicle, meaning in the case of a 1985 524td: PCV, EGR, VP-20.
kingoftarmace2004
Posts: 102
Joined: Mar 15, 2018 3:34 PM
Location: Fall River Mills

Re: m21 Identification

Post by kingoftarmace2004 »

just like you cant put a school bus diesel in a truck under X gross weight ETC. I would talk to a REF. But I am licensed for smog inspection and repair. I have some experience and like to help but I do find myself researching cuz the laws always change in CA. -Paul
IntrotoDiesel
Posts: 6
Joined: May 01, 2020 11:46 PM
Location: California

Re: m21 Identification

Post by IntrotoDiesel »

Well I'm back to learning about the m21, currently trying to figure out what the bellhousing on it right now is. It was mated with a homemade adapter to a T18 transmission, but (I think) the bell housing itself is BMW.

Bellhousing is a two piece unit, one about 2.5 inches thick, the other adding another 4 inches to that.

Image
Image

It's got timing marks on the top left and a top mounted external slave cylinder. Flywheel looks to be a pretty thick unit, maybe 3 inches off the back of the crank

Image
Image


I have not seen any part numbers but if I get a tip on where to look i'll lift it up and check, I have not seen any images of a 2 piece bell hosing for the m20 or m21, the timing marks make me think it's a diesel possibly for timing the VE pump RPM trigger? Again I have no idea what I'm looking at here, two hours of me googling stuff is probably less helpful then 10 seconds of your knowledge on these motors, but I'll keep looking on my own as well.

Edit- From the looks of this very small image the bellhousing may be from a Vixen RV, behind it would have been a Renault 5 speed manual. If so I probably have some rare and useless parts no one will every need
Image

Edit 2- So the Vixen 21 used a Renault UN-1 transmission, here is a picture
Image
Same bellhousing, same slave cylinder placement. Who tore apart a 1/376 motorhome to build a International scout!
gadget73
Posts: 574
Joined: Nov 22, 2017 11:30 PM
Location: New Jersey

Re: m21 Identification

Post by gadget73 »

The Vixen was rear engine, so that trans would make sense. Odd source of a motor and an even stranger destination. I guess an M21 might be a performance upgrade over the 4 cyl Scout.

The crank pickup on my auto M21 comes in from the engine side, right near the starter. No clue where the manual ones were, but bellhouse area would make sense if its a different offset flywheel.
kingoftarmace2004
Posts: 102
Joined: Mar 15, 2018 3:34 PM
Location: Fall River Mills

Re: m21 Identification

Post by kingoftarmace2004 »

CRAZY! too bad you dont have the transmission, could make some crazy rear/mid engine m20 thing?
gadget73
Posts: 574
Joined: Nov 22, 2017 11:30 PM
Location: New Jersey

Re: m21 Identification

Post by gadget73 »

That could be fun. I'm thinking sand rail type of thing, where you'd typically see a VW driveline. With a low weight chassis even a moderate HP engine would be an absolute blast. M10 might be an even better fit for something like that.
Post Reply