What are the challenges of owning an e23/745i?
What are the challenges of owning an e23/745i?
I loves how these cars look and ride....what are the challenges and pitfalls of owning an e23, especially the 745i? Seems like most are run down and seldom kept up. I'm looking for 1st hand experience and knowledge.
Last edited by edlocke on Mar 12, 2011 10:29 AM, edited 1 time in total.
Here are the things that come to mind about mine:
The most annoying bit is the hvac system, since it's vacuum-actuated. Motor mounts are unique and very expensive. Unless you get a car with Sls, a rear sway is very hard to come by. The rear suspension is the same as the e28, and the front end is more e12/e3 ish. No shimmy though.
Other than that, they're big, comfy, decent to drive and surprisingly capable cars. It's a shame they aren't apprecIated more widely, but that's the curse of the old seven series.
The most annoying bit is the hvac system, since it's vacuum-actuated. Motor mounts are unique and very expensive. Unless you get a car with Sls, a rear sway is very hard to come by. The rear suspension is the same as the e28, and the front end is more e12/e3 ish. No shimmy though.
Other than that, they're big, comfy, decent to drive and surprisingly capable cars. It's a shame they aren't apprecIated more widely, but that's the curse of the old seven series.
Re: What are the challenges of owning an e23?
No first hand knowledge but this is the best resource I've found in researching them.edlocke wrote:I loves how these cars look and ride....what are the challenges and pitfalls of owning an e23? Seems like most are run down and seldom kept up. I'm looking for 1st hand experience and knowledge.
http://www.e38.org/e23/
turbo lag
Yes but I know someone that has just the cure for this.....T_C_D wrote:The biggest challenge is timing WOT so the car moves when you need to. (massive lag).
e23 parts
Are parts hard to come by? Front spoiler, euro bumpers...the stuff you don't see much...
Re: e23 parts
The parts are a little harder to come by than e28 stuff, but more euro e23s made it over here than e28s, it seems. Fortunately, since they're so much less desirable, there isn't as much competition. And there are more euro examples available for sale, so getting a car that already has euro stuff on it is easier.edlocke wrote:Are parts hard to come by? Front spoiler, euro bumpers...the stuff you don't see much...
Re: e23 parts
Besides Scotties e23 web site is there other sites that cater to the e23 car?derrith wrote:The parts are a little harder to come by than e28 stuff, but more euro e23s made it over here than e28s, it seems. Fortunately, since they're so much less desirable, there isn't as much competition. And there are more euro examples available for sale, so getting a car that already has euro stuff on it is easier.edlocke wrote:Are parts hard to come by? Front spoiler, euro bumpers...the stuff you don't see much...
Re: e23 parts
The e23 bimmerboard and the bimmerforums e23 section are the only other two. The bimmerboard has a better s/n ratio than bf.c. Much slower discourse than around here, due to the much smaller user base.edlocke wrote:Besides Scotties e23 web site is there other sites that cater to the e23 car?derrith wrote:The parts are a little harder to come by than e28 stuff, but more euro e23s made it over here than e28s, it seems. Fortunately, since they're so much less desirable, there isn't as much competition. And there are more euro examples available for sale, so getting a car that already has euro stuff on it is easier.edlocke wrote:Are parts hard to come by? Front spoiler, euro bumpers...the stuff you don't see much...
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Scottie's site is the one for the turbo, but for E23s in general, it is http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/e23. Lots of knowledgeable folks there.
The 7-series, all of them so far, are not as popular as used cars compared to the lesser BMWs because of the complexity of the car for its time. This leads to two issues. Those that bought new want the whistles and bells of new cars and sell. Those that buy used have to contend with the problems of older whistles and bells that were cutting edge for their time.
The 7-series has always been the big car that can handle better than expected.
The 7-series, all of them so far, are not as popular as used cars compared to the lesser BMWs because of the complexity of the car for its time. This leads to two issues. Those that bought new want the whistles and bells of new cars and sell. Those that buy used have to contend with the problems of older whistles and bells that were cutting edge for their time.
The 7-series has always been the big car that can handle better than expected.
Ed,
I'm a big fan of the E23 myself and have been wanting to take the plunge into ownership for some time. Did you happen to see the 745i on Bring a Trailer last week?
27,000kms....
http://bringatrailer.com/2011/03/07/bat ... 45i-turbo/
Best,
PF
I'm a big fan of the E23 myself and have been wanting to take the plunge into ownership for some time. Did you happen to see the 745i on Bring a Trailer last week?
27,000kms....
http://bringatrailer.com/2011/03/07/bat ... 45i-turbo/
Best,
PF
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Extremely nice one for sale - or at least was on BaT:
http://bringatrailer.com/2011/03/07/bat ... 45i-turbo/
Very nice car!
http://bringatrailer.com/2011/03/07/bat ... 45i-turbo/
Very nice car!
Well, Ljet turbo versions are weird too...
The 80-82s were a 7:1 3.2L motor that ran 10psi and with a different distributor than the '83 MY Ljet (should be 7.5:1 3.2L from memory), then the Motronic came around for the '84 MY and upped the compression to 8:1... but with the bigger motor came far more complex electronics.
Ljets are also lame due to the 3HP22, but that makes them perfect candidates for a five speed swap and easier to MS to boot. Ljets also have far, far more simplistic electronics... basically they will always start and run provided nothing catastrophic has occurred. Subframes also changed around mid 1982 also... keep that in mind as the later ones are easier to rebuild and most neat aftermarket stuff is for the late ones plus differential ratios.
Ljets are given away for hardly anything it seems, I paid $400... yes $400, for mine. Bilsteins on it with proper SLS delete kit, new 745i specific radiator, Texas car since imported in the early 80s, working HVAC vacuum (A/C needs to be resealed and charged), STACKS of records including a new top end. But the paint is terrible. It needed some serious dialing in of the AFM via my WBO2 and the timing was WAY off, but all is well now. Wrong plugs, very old cap/rotor, wrong plug wires, etc. Could easily be a 24hrs of Lemons car
The '84 MY+ cars are the ones that started to receive all the weird options... buffalo hide leather, rear radios, glass roof, etc. So be sure to take that into consideration when shopping for a candidate.
The old K27 turbo system stuff is archaic at best, I would not waste time repairing it if you find a good car with a bad turbocharger. The wastegates do not work well anymore, etc. Just toss it all and go with a TCD kit. You are no longer beholding to 30+ year old technology.
As others said, the HVAC is not super simple like a full manual system but still simple to repair with the proper tools, basically a MityVac and some knowledge. I mean come on, how complex can an '80s ACC be anyway? The PBU at times will not stick... big deal, shorten the elastic band and it will. No power when switched on? Usually the microswitch... $5 and some soldering and it functions again. SOME ECE E23s had a more manual based HVAC, but almost every one I have seen uses the more common ACC found in the US cars. Which I suppose is for the best since more parts are available.
Click here - http://bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/780521/ that guy sells us the pods for the MB crowd as most BMW ones are NLA. The double throw are best purchased new, the single are easily rebuildable and really do not fail as much. Of course, right?
If you look around Bilsteins are not hard to find and still sold new all over. H&R, Spax, and well that is about it for new springs around. 745i came with a rear sway which is good (15mm), the after markets are about 7mm larger plus adjustable... they rarely come up for sale. Front brakes are the four pot and rears single... I just buy my reman calipers at my local auto store. Many pad choices. SS lines are around. Most of the crap related to the car is same as the M30.
Cruise control is almost always dead, just needs a new cruise amp and off you go.
You will never know what you find on the federalized cars, so be prepared to backtrack for a while to make everything correct. This is not solely the fault of the importers, but of PO's and their shops with little or no knowledge over the years.
I can think of multiple cars that are for sale if you coerce the owner a bit, but not actively on the market. If you are truly interested, drop me a PM as I am sure the owners do not want their information public. The closest to you is in Mississippi.
2¢
The 80-82s were a 7:1 3.2L motor that ran 10psi and with a different distributor than the '83 MY Ljet (should be 7.5:1 3.2L from memory), then the Motronic came around for the '84 MY and upped the compression to 8:1... but with the bigger motor came far more complex electronics.
Ljets are also lame due to the 3HP22, but that makes them perfect candidates for a five speed swap and easier to MS to boot. Ljets also have far, far more simplistic electronics... basically they will always start and run provided nothing catastrophic has occurred. Subframes also changed around mid 1982 also... keep that in mind as the later ones are easier to rebuild and most neat aftermarket stuff is for the late ones plus differential ratios.
Ljets are given away for hardly anything it seems, I paid $400... yes $400, for mine. Bilsteins on it with proper SLS delete kit, new 745i specific radiator, Texas car since imported in the early 80s, working HVAC vacuum (A/C needs to be resealed and charged), STACKS of records including a new top end. But the paint is terrible. It needed some serious dialing in of the AFM via my WBO2 and the timing was WAY off, but all is well now. Wrong plugs, very old cap/rotor, wrong plug wires, etc. Could easily be a 24hrs of Lemons car
The '84 MY+ cars are the ones that started to receive all the weird options... buffalo hide leather, rear radios, glass roof, etc. So be sure to take that into consideration when shopping for a candidate.
The old K27 turbo system stuff is archaic at best, I would not waste time repairing it if you find a good car with a bad turbocharger. The wastegates do not work well anymore, etc. Just toss it all and go with a TCD kit. You are no longer beholding to 30+ year old technology.
As others said, the HVAC is not super simple like a full manual system but still simple to repair with the proper tools, basically a MityVac and some knowledge. I mean come on, how complex can an '80s ACC be anyway? The PBU at times will not stick... big deal, shorten the elastic band and it will. No power when switched on? Usually the microswitch... $5 and some soldering and it functions again. SOME ECE E23s had a more manual based HVAC, but almost every one I have seen uses the more common ACC found in the US cars. Which I suppose is for the best since more parts are available.
Click here - http://bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/780521/ that guy sells us the pods for the MB crowd as most BMW ones are NLA. The double throw are best purchased new, the single are easily rebuildable and really do not fail as much. Of course, right?
If you look around Bilsteins are not hard to find and still sold new all over. H&R, Spax, and well that is about it for new springs around. 745i came with a rear sway which is good (15mm), the after markets are about 7mm larger plus adjustable... they rarely come up for sale. Front brakes are the four pot and rears single... I just buy my reman calipers at my local auto store. Many pad choices. SS lines are around. Most of the crap related to the car is same as the M30.
Cruise control is almost always dead, just needs a new cruise amp and off you go.
You will never know what you find on the federalized cars, so be prepared to backtrack for a while to make everything correct. This is not solely the fault of the importers, but of PO's and their shops with little or no knowledge over the years.
I can think of multiple cars that are for sale if you coerce the owner a bit, but not actively on the market. If you are truly interested, drop me a PM as I am sure the owners do not want their information public. The closest to you is in Mississippi.
2¢
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Re: What are the challenges of owning an e23/745i?
1) HVACedlocke wrote:I loves how these cars look and ride....what are the challenges and pitfalls of owning an e23, especially the 745i? Seems like most are run down and seldom kept up. I'm looking for 1st hand experience and knowledge.
2) HVAC
3) HVAC
IMHO the suspension is better than an E28 because it doesn't seem to be so fussy (E28s have to have tight bushings and well balanced wheels). In most other aspects it is similar to an E28. Of course, the 745i is a little more complicated, but not overly so.
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Re: What are the challenges of owning an e23/745i?
The above is spot-on. I had a love-hate relationship with my black over cardinal E23, fwiw. There is a tendency among E23 enthusiasts to downplay the difficulty of fixing the HVAC system. If you are a professional tech, or you know this car and have repaired this system before, it is not that hard. But if you haven't handled it before, it is a pain in the ass that requires the removal of large portions of the dashboard. Not fun. And that all assumes that everything in there still works and it is simply an issue of rubber lines. The pushbutton and thumbwheel controls also consistently fail. Programa has these, but they are not cheap (at least they weren't 10 years ago and I can't imagine that they have gotten cheaper in the interim given that it is only become more of a specialty item) although for Ed that doesn't likely seem a concern. And then add on top of all that the fact that like most 80s cars, when you ask if the AC works the typical answer is "yes, I think it just needs a charge." OK, great, that means it needs at least a $1000 worth of additional work in the form of new lines, maybe more. Of course that is if you are paying a shop.Kenny Blankenship wrote:1) HVACedlocke wrote:I loves how these cars look and ride....what are the challenges and pitfalls of owning an e23, especially the 745i? Seems like most are run down and seldom kept up. I'm looking for 1st hand experience and knowledge.
2) HVAC
3) HVAC
IMHO the suspension is better than an E28 because it doesn't seem to be so fussy (E28s have to have tight bushings and well balanced wheels). In most other aspects it is similar to an E28. Of course, the 745i is a little more complicated, but not overly so.
For me, electrical gremlins of the type that plague E23 and early run E32s and E34 can absolutely ruin a car because they are very expensive and time consuming to repair properly.
All that aside, an E23 can be a great car if it is well sorted and owned by an enthusiast owner. So if some of the guys here who are long-term board members with 745s or other E23s were selling their cars, and I were in the market, I would be very interested and everything I've mentioned above, in terms of being a concern, would be downplayed considerably if not entirely because these guys maintain the cars properly. But for the average Ebay find? Assume the worst. Always. But as I write that, I realize that this is not much different than the E28, or any used BMW of this era, except with the E23 as Keith mentioned there are additional bells and whistles to watch. On the plus side, there is no question that the HVAC of the E23 when working, is far superior and makes the car a far more comfortable long distance car than an E28. This shouldn't be a surprise I guess given that it is a 7.
As regards the 745i, I have never owned one but I did consider a nice one several years back. Personally, while I like the 745, if I were so inclined to do a deep dive in an E23 engine bay, while I am sure the TCD kit is a huge improvement over the stock unit, for me personally I would rather find a late run E23 and drop in a b35. The E23 isn't that much heavier than an E28 and so while I have not experienced it personally I would think the additional power and torque would be more than enough unless you were doing timed quarter mile runs. And that's with an autotragic. Drop in a 5 speed and the car becomes just outright fun, even with a b32 (which is what I drove a few times).
HTH and good luck.
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Roald Dahl's old E23 sold on ebay UK a few months back for not very much at all. I've been kicking myself since for not getting my grubby paws on it. What a privilege it would have been to sit in the seat where one of my hero's did..
I know that's not much practical use, but I just thought I'd register my approval for all things E23!
I know that's not much practical use, but I just thought I'd register my approval for all things E23!
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One of the owners of the Blue Hartge that I spoke with said it was his second favorite car behind a Cobra. He replaced a 745i with the Hartge and enjoyed the drivability of the normally aspirated engine more than the turbo lag of the 745i.
The 5-speed in the Hartge vs. the automatic in the 745i also played a part, I'm sure. So for general driving, around town or traveling the b35 might be a better choice in a later e23 than the 745i with its added complexity. For fast when the motor is spooled up, the 745i with the adjustable waste gate is the way to go.
€ e23s had the big diff, 3.25 was standard for most but the turbo got the 2.93 usually. This may make a difference in these cars, too. I have swapped the 3.25 in mine to a 3.46 and the drive is much better on the back roads. No need to stir the gears unless one wants to. Subtle but nice difference.
The 5-speed in the Hartge vs. the automatic in the 745i also played a part, I'm sure. So for general driving, around town or traveling the b35 might be a better choice in a later e23 than the 745i with its added complexity. For fast when the motor is spooled up, the 745i with the adjustable waste gate is the way to go.
€ e23s had the big diff, 3.25 was standard for most but the turbo got the 2.93 usually. This may make a difference in these cars, too. I have swapped the 3.25 in mine to a 3.46 and the drive is much better on the back roads. No need to stir the gears unless one wants to. Subtle but nice difference.
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Only has two pedals, though.carnutdallas wrote:Extremely nice one for sale - or at least was on BaT:
http://bringatrailer.com/2011/03/07/bat ... 45i-turbo/
Very nice car!
That's pretty cool! I always figured he was a BMW guy. My favorite short story of his was always "The Hitchhiker", mainly because a BMW 3.3Li is mentioned in the very first sentence, and then plays heavily into the storyline.snakebrain wrote:Roald Dahl's old E23 sold on ebay UK a few months back for not very much at all. I've been kicking myself since for not getting my grubby paws on it. What a privilege it would have been to sit in the seat where one of my hero's did..
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Yep, he liked a good Beemer. In fact, he generally liked the good things in life. I'm really sorry I didn't buy his old car.kway wrote:That's pretty cool! I always figured he was a BMW guy. My favorite short story of his was always "The Hitchhiker", mainly because a BMW 3.3Li is mentioned in the very first sentence, and then plays heavily into the storyline.snakebrain wrote:Roald Dahl's old E23 sold on ebay UK a few months back for not very much at all. I've been kicking myself since for not getting my grubby paws on it. What a privilege it would have been to sit in the seat where one of my hero's did..
Everybody should read 'My Uncle Oswald' - all-time great book! (And if you're interested in knowing more about him, there's a recent biography by Donald Sturrock that's absolutely great..)
Enough off-topiary! Back to the realities of owning one...
e23
I'm gonna do some checking around to see what it would take to get my maroon 745i back together.. It is a rust free 1984/5?
If I did make the move to bring it back online I would gut and strip the whole car..... I can't see just putting it back together without some bling....
I would love to see pics of your e23's inside and out....or direct me to a page of pics for these cars.....
If I did make the move to bring it back online I would gut and strip the whole car..... I can't see just putting it back together without some bling....
I would love to see pics of your e23's inside and out....or direct me to a page of pics for these cars.....